Fake!

[TomGoodheart 373]

Has anyone (I'm looking at Chris and Geoff here ) any ideas about pricing of counterfeit coins?

I'm talking contemporary counterfeits here, that form a part of numismatic (or should that be paranumismatic) history, not modern repros that someone has filed the identifying marks off.

Would YOU fork out good money for a counterfeit for your collection? If so, did you pay a lot less than for the 'real' thing?

[Chris Perkins 223]

I don't think I would ever buy one individually, but I have accumulated a collection of fakes, from William III, Anne, lots of George III, right up to on of EII. I have a lovely 6 Shillings Irish George III fake and I was offered £60.00 for it.

Apart from that I wouldn't have a clue what to ask for them, or what they really are worth. I know that the GIII fake Halfpennies (1770's) are very popular in America, because they were even struck there, some of them. I've been able to sell fakes for more than the real thing in the past on eBay!

[Geoff T 3]

The question of fakes came up in Coin News recently. There are some people - like Gary Phelps - who will make pseudo-copies of rare coins like the 1933 penny for those who want a complete run and couldn't possibly acquire the real thing. Such people make no bones about their products not intending to deceive. I would say that a fake is a such a coin, whereas one which was made with the intention of being passed off as the real thing is a forgery.

Forgeries of coins currently in curculation are simply illegal. Look at all the forged £1s about at the moment. Forgeries which once came into that category but which are now part of history are, I think, interesting in their own right. I know that in the USA, as Chris says, coins like this, along with errors and brockages, are more sought after, but my theory is that this is probably compensation for not having the historical breadth of national coins to collect from.

As for pricing I really don't know. Some acknowledged forgeries, such as spade guineas, do come up for sale from time to time, so it might be worth checking out what they fetch.

I don't think we should write off forged coins entirely. They exemplify a practice which has been going on for centuries and as such form a sub-tradition within numismatic history.

[william 0]

I envy Geoff's knowledge!^^^

[Chris Perkins 223]

I envy Geoff's knowledge!^^^

I don't wish to belittle our newest expert member, the highly respected Mr T (I wonder if he also has 5kg of gold chains around his neck? William....Ask your Dad, or watch UK Gold)

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I didn't really feel Geoff imparted very much knowledge at all in his last post for this thread. He gave a very interesting opinion and provided a few real life examples of things to do with forgeries, but he provided no direct answers to the original questions. (probably because there aren't any, and each fogery has to be judged on it's own merits)

So don't go getting all starry eyed over our Geoff, will you William, he's just human!

(Geoff, do you have publicity shots available?)

[william 0]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I didn't really feel Geoff imparted very much knowledge at all in his last post for this thread. He gave a very interesting opinion and provided a few real life examples of things to do with forgeries, but he provided no direct answers to the original questions. (probably because there aren't any, and each fogery has to be judged on it's own merits)

Really?

[Geoff T 3]

Actually, I wasn't setting out to provide answers, just to put across some points of view. I really don't have any definitive answers in this instance, but I hope that what I did say was of some use.

However, I do think it's important to distinguish between fakes which are struck deliberately for collectors and current forgeries which are intended to enter circulation and be passed off as the real thing. The latter isn't just dishonest, it's criminal.

(For publicity shots, see my agent.)

[Emperor Oli 0]

I agree but........if one buys the reproductions, they normally have the makers mark on them, whether stamped or engraved. I wish they found another method of showing it was a repro than that but I can't think of one off the top of my head.

[william 0]

I suppose they could make some kind of mark on the edge of the coin.

[Chris Perkins 223]

It's actually a legal requirement that reproduction coins are clearly stamped on one side with the maker initials or 'REPRODUCTION' I believe.

I know it looks bloody awful, and I wonder why the fantasy issues don't have that stamped on them. Maybe it's because they do not look like any genuine coins.

[Master Jmd 50]

i bought the 18th century of the monarchy £5 coin from westminster coins, and they included a free set of reproduction george III coins, but they are not stamped or engraved with any un-normal marks, they look perfectly real infact!

Edited April 7, 2004 by Master J.M.D

[Chris Perkins 223]

Frankly, Westminster collection are a business, not a coin dealer by any stretch of the imagination.

I can't stand new issues, the kind issued just to make profit, and I can't stand the way people like 'Westminster Collection' (who are not based anywhere near Westminster) market such products to the unsuspecting public.

Boycott Westminster collection, and buy some real coins that will actually rise in value in less than 100 years!

[Master Jmd 50]

i dont like westminster myself, but it was either buy a £5 coin from the royal mint for £7.55, or buy the £5 coin from westminster collection for £9.99 and get a set of George III reproduction coins...

[william 0]

I admit that I have bought from Westminster in the past, but now I hate them. Long live proper coin dealers!!

[mint_mark 3]

i dont like westminster myself, but it was either buy a £5 coin from the royal mint for £7.55, or buy the £5 coin from westminster collection for £9.99 and get a set of George III reproduction coins...

If you wait a while you can buy five pound coins from the Royal Mint website for five pounds, and free delivery! For example, the latest highly collectable offering to celebrate the entente cordiale is available at face value. Entente cordiale... would be a good name for a fruit drink!

Anyway, I wish they'd do the same with the two pound and fifty pence too...

[Chris Perkins 223]

Well I detected a little irony there, did you, fellow forumees?

Talking of fellows, where are all the ladies around here (apart from Eliza of course)

She's the only one. When I saw Penny Master I got excited, but realise now Penny Master is male (Sorry Penny Master), or of course she would be 'Penny Mistress', surely.

[william 0]

Has Eliza left for good, or is she ill, or what?

[Sylvester 15]

Has Eliza left for good, or is she ill, or what?

who knows... i hope she returns though.

[Emperor Oli 0]

Read one of the other threads, will; it seems chris was "rude" to her. I doubt that's what this is however, cause it's far too petty

[TomGoodheart 373]

Thank you all for that. I actually did fork out good money for a coin that I reckon is a fake. I have yet to establish if it is a contemporary coin however or a later 'issue'.

I am quite happy to do so as I feel it's part of coin history. After all, people collect tokens, most of which were never legal tender. There was allowance for later ones in that the Sheffield and Birmingham workhouse tokens were declared legal. I don't know about the 1700s. I think they were just considered a convenience.

What I have is a bit of metal that looks much like a Charles I shilling. If it was made by someone in the 1630's I'd be happy. If not, I guess I have to chalk it up to experience!