Syphate Coins

[Geordie582 18]

While examining my meagre collection of Byzantine coins, I was struck by the impracticality of the scyphate form of coin. Despite this, the very worn examples I have go to show that from about the 11th to the 13th century these coins were in constant use.

On closer examination, I realised that the production of these coins was much more complicated than the usual flat types. The irregular cut from the sheet would have produced sharp corners. The cup shape would mean a much bulkier pocket or purse, and diving your hand in to get some small change could have been a hazardous event. The couple of examples I add just go to show how haphazard the production, while also showing that they must have been in regular use for a century or more, much like the Victorian bronze, before the disaster of decimalisation!

A merchant, cashing up at the end of the day must have had the patience of a saint. The irregular shape, variation in cup depth, and general awkwardness of handling must have driven him mad. Stacking coins to aid calculation would be out of the question.

So! Why? Why was the scyphate coin developed? To last a couple of centuries there must have been a powerful reason. Religion? The need to be different? Any thoughts?

I just love dropping a pebble in the pond to see how far the ripples go!

( not strictly 'Ancient' but where else to put it?)

Edited January 16, 2007 by Geordie582

[scottishmoney 18]

With Byzantine coins the image of Christ and sometimes the Emperor were usually in the design. It is presumptuous, but I wonder that because of this there was an effort to preserve the integrity of the design over time so that the image would not wear as typical with flat surface coins.

Frankly it is one of the features of Byzantine coins that is a bit of a turn off for me, in fact I own none so far, but I would like at some point to purchase a coin of Justinian or Anastasius. If I buy a syphate coin, it will have to be gold flavoured.

[Geordie582 18]

I'd tend to agree about the wear - except the figure of Christ or the Virgin is usually on the convex side, making it the first to go!

I'm sitting looking at Southeby's catalgue for a sale in New York in 1998 and can't find a coin 'in the gold colour' for less than $300. That means I'm out of the picture. A lot of the coins are estimates at $5000!

[scottishmoney 18]

It was a good theory whilst it lasted, all of about 20 minutes until I searched on Wildwinds and Vcoins and noticed the same conclusion, Christ lost his head when the coin wore down.

On Vcoins though, I noticed that some early Medieval Hungarian coins were struck in syphate also.

Another trend I notice with them, perhaps due to the differing spread of the metal when the coin was struck, they have much more frequent splits in the flan than the usual roundish and flat flans.

Here is a scyphate example from Manuel I 1143-1180:

And another from Hungary ~ Bela III(1172-1196)

[Geordie582 18]

Yes! There are some very interesting Byzantines around and it would be easy to get hooked on that timeline. Thank goodness the prices keep me off. I'm still intregued by the mechanics of the thing and can't help wondering why. I notice the first coin in this catalogue to start the syphate disease seems to be that of Michael IV (the Paphlagonian) 1034-41, who had a Histamenon nomisma of "flan slightly concave".

Talking of disease - Michael died of dropsy aged 'late 20's'.

From then on they became progressively more concave. My musings regarding the problems for merchants and the sheer bulk produced by this form still puzzle me. Just imagine the examples I show, when new, and all corners still sharp! What would it be like to push your hand into a pocket-full of those?

I forgot to mention - the coins I show are all bronze - so could be quite sharp!

Edited January 16, 2007 by Geordie582

[Paul Barford 0]

I always assumed that it was to make the very thin flans seem 'bulkier' and easier to pick up. When you are handling them in multiples, its quite natural to hold handfuls of them nested one in the other, admittedly I've never tried stacking any, but is it really as impractical as you say (for example just in tens)? They would be easier surely to move around the bargaining table in nested stacks of ten for example. Obviously somebody saw some sense in it, as Early Medieval Bulgarian coins also were produced on the same pattern and you see the same idea re-emerge with the Early Medieval one-sided 'bracteate' coinage of Poland and the Teutonic Order state (which were REALLY thin flans - silver, but I would have thought unstackable).

I guess in economies where some of the coins in circulation were cut silver, you would be foolish just to thrust your hand blindly into a moneybag anyway!! Possibly they handled coins a little differently to us. Ibn Fadlan writing of the markets of central Europe in the tenth century talks of pieces of cloth which were used as a medium of exchange, though the discovery of hoards of hacksilver with remnants of cloth wrapping in the same area suggests that weighed amounts of silver could habve been pre-packaged and handled like that in those economies at least. Just some loose thoughts arising from your query.

Paul Barford

[Geordie582 18]

Thanks for that Paul. It was the irregular shapes of the bronze issues that intregued me. You'd think that, if they took the trouble to produce the the syphate coins - just think of cutting the means to make images on curved surfaces - they would be more circumspect in their cutting the coin from the blank?

It's one of those puzzles without a solution, unless someone comes up with contemporary documentary evidence.

[Paul Barford 0]

Hi, I guess the answer is in human nature, after your workshop's struck its 2333rd scyphate coin in a week and if your supervisor's not watching, you might be tempted to turn out as many rough and ready ones as you can get away with... and if people used them (as the wear on them shows they did) and the boss did not mind, presumably there was no incentive to do a better job. They presumably had a quota to turn out in a certain period and I bet as in any job these days, they were understaffed and had their work cut out to fill that quota. Maybe the shoddy coins were a frm of "protest"? :>)

Very probably the specialist die cutting would not have been done by the burly blokes with the huge hammer that struck them.

Paul Barford

[scottishmoney 18]

As evidence to the theory that perhaps it was just shoddy workmanship, ponder English pennies during the XII and XIII centuries, they got to the point during Henri I and Stephens reign where they were little more than crude abominations. Surely some had to do with the chaotic nature of the times, but there was more to it than that. Matilda's coins were struck on the fly so to speak, but they are of a fantastic design, similar to the sovereign pennies of Henry VII.

[Geordie582 18]

Yes! and Henry II's Tealby issues were not any better, but that was poor striking, I don't think the design was all that bad.

As an aside, How do you think they located top and bottom dies, when there seems to be evidence that the coins were struck on either strips or sheets? At least when striking hammered siver and gold, the cut (punched?) blank was placed on the die and therefore easily seen to be located. (I know there are examples of mis-struck coins but, as Paul says, that could be put down to fatigue or boredom.) Mating top and bottom dies in the syphate case must have been much harder?

[Gary D 76]

Yes! and Henry II's Tealby issues were not any better, but that was poor striking, I don't think the design was all that bad.

As an aside, How do you think they located top and bottom dies, when there seems to be evidence that the coins were struck on either strips or sheets? At least when striking hammered siver and gold, the cut (punched?) blank was placed on the die and therefore easily seen to be located. (I know there are examples of mis-struck coins but, as Paul says, that could be put down to fatigue or boredom.) Mating top and bottom dies in the syphate case must have been much harder?

If one die is domed and the other cupped they would tend to self align to a certian extent, also when cutting sheet with shears or chisle it's far easier to chop it out rough than to get it nice and round.

[Geordie582 18]

If one die is domed and the other cupped they would tend to self align to a certian extent, also when cutting sheet with shears or chisle it's far easier to chop it out rough than to get it nice and round.

Agreed! But - I'd expect a lot of slippage and 'burring of the image as it is stuck & locates.

The only way I can see it working is where a depression is created BEFORE the coin is struck, giving a positive place for both die and anvil. But that means double the work and halving the production time, unless you double the manpower.

[Geordie582 18]

Thanks for an interesting discussion, folks! The water is made a little muddier by the reply I've had from the Coin News (February issue - Coin Clinic) regarding the dreaded avatar. It would have us understand that syphate coins - my avatar - were still being produced in the 19th century! I had them between the 11th and 13th centuries. Hmmm! Still thinking on this!

[Hussulo 6]

Thanks for an interesting discussion, folks! The water is made a little muddier by the reply I've had from the Coin News (February issue - Coin Clinic) regarding the dreaded avatar. It would have us understand that syphate coins - my avatar - were still being produced in the 19th century! I had them between the 11th and 13th centuries. Hmmm! Still thinking on this!

Hi Geordie I read about your avatar in this months Coin News, Coin clinic section. It looks older than 19th century to me, but then again I aint no expert.

[Geordie582 18]

I agree! I don't want to doubt the expert (Who is he?) but it looks a lot more dated than the 19th century, which is why I'm curious to know if anyone has come across other syphate coins of that era?

( I don't know if you know the history of my piece, but it was included in a batch of uncleaned Roman coins I purchased on the dreaded ebay!)

Edited January 24, 2007 by Geordie582

[Peter 615]

I agree! I don't want to doubt the expert (Who is he?) but it looks a lot more dated than the 19th century, which is why I'm curious to know if anyone has come across other syphate coins of that era?

( I don't know if you know the history of my piece, but it was included in a batch of uncleaned Roman coins I purchased on the dreaded ebay!)

I reckon you have a Victorian brass "Syphate" gaming counter.

[Geordie582 18]

No doubt for drunked Victorian gentlemen who keep dropping their coins - at least they don't roll under the sofa!