Availability of sceattas etc

[Paul Barford 0]

Hello Predecimal forum members.

I have perhaps an unusual ... but I hope interesting .... query for forum members with old back numbers of auction and dealers’ catalogues.

Is anyone able to supply information how the price of "Porcupine" sceattas (in "fine" condition) would have changed between 1967 (say) and 2006/7? I would like if possible to produce a graph of this. In particular I am interested in plotting any fluctuations in the 1970s and 1980s.

I am interested in the effects of metal detecting on the number of old coins available on the market. Looking at price seems a possible way to approach this. I chose sceattas as they are relatively small that they would be difficult to find as 'chance' finds but their numbers did increase (and prices drop) with the advent of the metal detector. For this reason they would be a good index of the effect I want to look at.

If anyone has any other information on the effect of the use of metal detectors on the availability to collectors of other types of British coin (Celtic, Roman, or hammered) I'd be grateful to hear.

Finally (?) there is a slight problem with the effects of inflation over these 40 years on the interpretation of these prices, how to calibrate for that? Any ideas?

Many thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Paul Barford

Edited December 28, 2006 by Paul Barford

[scottishmoney 18]

Actually Sceattas are not commonly found even with a metal detector, unless they are found in a small quantity with others primarily because of their dimunitive size.

[Paul Barford 0]

Thanks 'Scottishmoney', maybe not terribly "commonly" found, but you would have to agree they are more available to collectors now than they were in (say) the 1960s due to the use of this technology for finding them.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.p...&cat=91&ppuser=

http://www.findsdatabase.org.uk/search/ind...set=1&expand=24, ...search for "sceat' in "coins"

It was the effect of increasing availability to collectors I wanted to explore with the use of forum member's knowledge of price fluctuations.

As I say, I'd be interested also in comments about increase in availability of other types of coins too, especially if it can in some way be "quantified". Thanks.

Paul Barford

[Red Riley 2]

Seaby's 1972 edition (the forerunner of Spinks') lists the price of type 353 £30 in fine. As far as I can see, the same type now numbered 786 is still £30 fine. So you may now have the answer you were looking for.

[scottishmoney 18]

I don't believe one off metal detector finds have a whole lot of an effect on market prices for coins, even if the collecting base is somewhat specialised and limited. However finds of small hoards do if they are all released at once. Example the famous Colchester hoard is still being released, and coins from the Brussels hoard of 1908 are still making their way out of vaults and into collectors hands. However the finds of Cnut pennies are a bad example, where they all got released at once, and the prices of the coins declined.

[Geordie582 18]

You've made me glance through 3 years of catalogues and have decided that there has been no visible change in values of early Anglo Saxon coins, especially the 'Porcupine' types. There is som movement on Northumbrian sceats but barely imperceptable. Mind you, that is only one dealer. Don't know if this helps.?

[Red Riley 2]

I don't believe one off metal detector finds have a whole lot of an effect on market prices for coins, even if the collecting base is somewhat specialised and limited. However finds of small hoards do if they are all released at once. Example the famous Colchester hoard is still being released, and coins from the Brussels hoard of 1908 are still making their way out of vaults and into collectors hands. However the finds of Cnut pennies are a bad example, where they all got released at once, and the prices of the coins declined.

Not certain I agree with you on this. Increase the supply in what is essentially a fairly esoteric area whilst the demand remains static, and inevitably the price will fall. It may not appear evident from the prices listed, but factor inflation in and the value has plummeted.

[scottishmoney 18]

Not certain I agree with you on this. Increase the supply in what is essentially a fairly esoteric area whilst the demand remains static, and inevitably the price will fall. It may not appear evident from the prices listed, but factor inflation in and the value has plummeted.

The Brussels hoard of 1908 is still making it's way into the market, I have several Scottish coins and a few English coins from this hoard. Curiously these coins all have a curious tone to them, as though some environmental factor caused their colouring.

The Cnut pennies are an example of market oversaturation however, they came out all at the same time and did not permit even a modest growth of interest in them. 10 yrs ago they were tough to find, now they are all over the place and they are cheap.

[Peter 615]

Detectorists are in my opinion a great source of rare and "other means" financially unobtainable coins.

A particular detectorist with about 40 years experience has shown me a few pieces.

If his collection was released on the market...Newcastle farthings et all the market would shudder.

Plus the finds are all from inert sandy soil where even the copper Charles 11 1/4d's are fantastic.

I have also bought a few pieces and thus don't faithfully follow auctions.

I've also bought a detector....but it is evident you have to put the time and research in.

My point is...there are market rocking quantities of quality coins sitting out there with the owners smugly sitting on coins (unbeknown) to the market.

They have looked in Spink but have no wish to sell.

[Hussulo 6]

I believe detectorists are an asset to the hobby. I'd much rather coins were dug up to be appreciated then remain buried wasting away somewhere. I also know it is important for finds to be documented and reported for future archeological reference.

[josie 8]

Yap they all should be recorded not only coins and artifacts but also other metals detected to resolved other mystries.

[Red Riley 2]

They have looked in Spink but have no wish to sell.

[Paul Barford 0]

Seaby's 1972 edition (the forerunner of Spinks') lists the price of type 353 £30 in fine. As far as I can see, the same type now numbered 786 is still £30 fine. So you may now have the answer you were looking for.

Thanks to all for the comments so far. The first problem is that a 1972 pound is not the same as a 2006 one. Thirty quid would go much further in those days than it would today, so although the number is the same, the coin in relative terms (ie compared with other commodities, food, petrol, beer whatever) is more expensive at the old price....

The second comment is that I have a 1978 Seaby's catalogue and the porcupine (the 'early' type numbered there 786) is listed as £55 (with prices for the other types listed between £50 and £70), so something happened to their price between 1972 and 1978 before dropping. Incidentally the same catalogue has an editorial discussing the effects of metal detectorist finds on the market.

Can anyone fill in the gaps with their old catalogues?

Thanks

Paul Barford

[Red Riley 2]

I have a 1978 Seaby's catalogue and the porcupine (the 'early' type numbered there 786) is listed as £55 (with prices for the other types listed between £50 and £70), so something happened to their price between 1972 and 1978 before dropping. Incidentally the same catalogue has an editorial discussing the effects of metal detectorist finds on the market.

[Guest smithers]

Paul, why have you got it in for detectorists, will you never stop this campaign against them. Time for you to grow up, they do a lot of good, leave them alone.

[Guest Jerry Morris]

Paul, why have you got it in for detectorists, will you never stop this campaign against them. Time for you to grow up, they do a lot of good, leave them alone.

Whats monetary value got to do with nice finds I give much of what i find to the farmers and sometimes museums.

I see this last week that the goverment are praising metal detectorists for their wonderful contributions by adding to the national heritage with all the finds that are being notified to their FLO`s.Jerry.

[Guest smithers]

Hi Jerry, this man (Paul) really has a thing about detectorists, if the truth be none he uses one himself anyway.

I hope he learns before it's too late and someone trys to find him, it could happen but I do hope not.

Loads of nutters out their.

[Paul Barford 0]

Paul, why have you got it in for detectorists, will you never stop this campaign against them. Time for you to grow up, they do a lot of good, leave them alone.

Hi Jerry, this man (Paul) really has a thing about detectorists, if the truth be none he uses one himself anyway.

Well, the truth is indeed "none" (sic), I don't as it happens. How curious, I post a query for a simple piece of information from British numismatists about fluctuations in supply of a British coin type over a couple of decades, and this happens. A "smithers" a "Jerry Morris" and a "Guest" start some nonsense.

I hope he learns before it's too late and someone trys to find him, it could happen but I do hope not. Loads of nutters out their.

Yes, including it would seem those that think its a good idea to use numismatic discussion lists to make in public semi-literate threatening comments. Actually quite a few metal detector users have "found" me, I had one here at home not three weeks ago when we were discussing perfectly amicably battlefield detecting. But yes, not a few other "metal detectorists" have engaged in more or less threatening behaviour instead of rational presentation of their views. Draw your own conclusions.

As for the article in the Independent, numismatists who might not have been following the issues that closely can read a comment on it here:

http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin...&F=P&S=&P=42967 which may shed a little light on the background to my concerns, and very probably why these three gentlemen are so concerned to shut up and shut out any such an analysis of the realities behind the 'spin' about their hobby (in the process disrupting your discussion list by such behaviour).

Any further help with fluctuations in sceatta prices would be much appreciated.

Paul Barford

Edited January 17, 2007 by Paul Barford

[Geordie582 18]

Strange! Your link is "unavailable". Censorship?

[Guest smithers]

Have you ever listened to yourself Paul, get down off that high chair, you need to relax and chill out, you and most other detectorists would probably get on really well if you stopped thinking so highly of yourself .

Chill out for once.

[Paul Barford 0]

Strange! Your link is "unavailable". Censorship?

http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin...&F=P&S=&P=42385

No, there was some pruning of another area of the British Archaeology Discussion List archives this morning. This link should work.

Paul Barford

[TomGoodheart 373]

I'm not quite sure what's going on here. Is there a problem with discussing detecting?

I can't add anything about the price of "Porcupine" sceattas; not my area. However it makes sense that a greater supply of an item will affect prices. I understand that the price of one of the coins I bought from the Prestbury hoard is lower in the latest Spink (haven't bought a copy yet myself!) than it was. This is not surprising though, since there were four known and now there's six!

Quite frankly, I'm happy with new coins coming on the market, providing the find details are recorded properly. It makes more material available to collectors and adds to our knowledge, both with the appearance of previously unknown varieties and with find location.

As many of you will know, the Victorians et al were mostly uninterested in where a coin was found and much valuable historical information was lost. It's only with more recent finds that people can start piecing together ideas about different mints/moneyers and information about the people of the time themselves, for example, how much they may have travelled.

And as for smithers and Jerry Morris, either explain what you're talking about in reasonable terms or keep it off the forum please. Ah! OK, Paul. The link worked so now I understand. I guess my point about 'properly recorded' stands.

Edited January 17, 2007 by TomGoodheart

[Paul Barford 0]

And as for smithers and Jerry Morris, either explain what you're talking about in reasonable terms or keep it off the forum please. Ah! OK, Paul. The link worked so now I understand. I guess my point about 'properly recorded' stands.

Precisely, that is exactly what the problem is. I suppose building on what you said, we have the technology to find out much, but some peope who have their hands on it want the freedom to use it in a fairly 'Victorian' manner.... while convincing the rest of the world that they are all using it 'responsibly'. Anyway, like it said on the box, I was interested in "charting effects of metal detector use on coin availability", i.e. a purely numismatic question addresssed to a numismatic discussion forum. There are other places on the internet where metal detectorists can get shirty or threaten/warn their critics and complain they are "misunderstood".

Paul Barford

[scottishmoney 18]

Having been on some detectorists forums in the UK, I am convinced I could find the 5th David II Noble

[TomGoodheart 373]

Anyway, like it said on the box, I was interested in "charting effects of metal detector use on coin availability", i.e. a purely numismatic question addresssed to a numismatic discussion forum. .

Paul Barford

Well I would say that, if it were not for new material coming on the market, then the hobby would be in the situation it is in the US, where collecting largely centres on modern coins (of the last 100 years or so) with more emphasis on new varieties, colour and condition of coins.

People like myself would be stuck because of the breaking up of the last great collections in the 1950s. Any gaps in the collection and it'd be a matter of waiting until the remaining Lingford, Brooker or Lockett coin comes back on the market or tracking down the owner and make a private deal. And someone like me has neither the money nor influence to pull off something like that!

Yes, every now and then a bit of farming or land development would turn up a hoard but that wouldn't be a drop in the ocean compared with the current market. And single coins like the Coenwulf gold penny? Forget it!

Of course, being a non-detectorist, I was under the impression everything was registered with the PAS. I think I thought 'legal obligation' meant 'recording'. I guess I am now wiser on that count!

.