Slabbing in Europe

[TomGoodheart 373]

Here you go josie!

For everyone lese, please see IS THERE A CERTIFICATION COMPANY BASE IN EUROPE thread in Lots of British coin related discussions

Edited October 1, 2006 by TomGoodheart

[josie 8]

Here you go josie!

(I do hope this works!)

THANK YOU TOM YOUR GOOD HEART

[Rob 3,002]

Tom. I think you should have put in a further option. Most of us are simply indifferent to slabs. If a coin comes in a slab so be it, if it is not then you've saved yourself a job taking it out. I'm not sure members are sufficiently passionately anti or pro slab to say we definitely want or don't want a European slabbing company. After all, everyone has a right to start a legitimate business. It's the irrelevance of slabbing to a collector that is the major point.

[TomGoodheart 373]

True Rob, but I just ran it off. I think if people want to interpret the question more widely, for example, whether or not they would use such a service, whether they think there would be market support etc that'd be fine. After all, it was just to get a flavour of the 'pulse of Europe' josie asked about!

[Sylvester 15]

I say no. I simply don't like slabs, the last thing i want to have to do is have to go through the process of having to crack every purchase out. Trust me i've had to crack two out in the past and it's a process that requires a g-clamp, a cloth and alot of patience. Especially when the coin is a 1786 Austrian ducat. Talk about being under pressure.

I definately wouldn't want to have to crack out something like an Henry I penny, a series that is notorious for coins cracking in the post.

[Rob 3,002]

Having deslabbed between 60 & 70 coins to date, I would have to say no based on the amount of wasted time spent doing this.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Thee and me Sylvester will, I suspect, never find slabbing/certification very attractive because the key things that slabbed coins offer aren't of much concern to us. Some of the stuff Rob collects however could be offered protection by the slab and yet interestingly he too is unpersuaded.

Certainly for Sylvester and me - we don't require the lustre of our EF coins preserved because they ain't! Even protection from fingermarks is of limited interest when most of your coins are grey lumps like mine!

A certified grade is valueless if, like me, you don't take too much notice of the given grade of a coin. Hammered coins just don't conform to a uniform standard and I imagine we both place greater importance on how a coin compares to others we may have seen before than to someone elses view.

I doubt either of us is too worried about needing to cater to the sort of market slabs currently inhabit should we want to sell on our 'treasures'.

I'm not saying that this couldn't change. An influx of modern fakes of the highest quality isn't impossible - they are known to exist for other types of coin. I would however be surprised if this happened to most of the coins I collect in the same way that I wouldn't expect a huge rush of fake jubilee shillings.

I suppose confidence could fall to the extent that raw coins become near impossible to sell, but I can't see this happening for a long time if ever. And if the US market in british hammered ever rises to the extent that prices become astronomical I guess I'll just slab up and accept my millions!!!

[Rob 3,002]

Thee and me Sylvester will, I suspect, never find slabbing/certification very attractive because the key things that slabbed coins offer aren't of much concern to us. Some of the stuff Rob collects however could be offered protection by the slab and yet interestingly he too is unpersuaded.

Certainly for Sylvester and me - we don't require the lustre of our EF coins preserved because they ain't! Even protection from fingermarks is of limited interest when most of your coins are grey lumps like mine!

A certified grade is valueless if, like me, you don't take too much notice of the given grade of a coin. Hammered coins just don't conform to a uniform standard and I imagine we both place greater importance on how a coin compares to others we may have seen before than to someone elses view.

I doubt either of us is too worried about needing to cater to the sort of market slabs currently inhabit should we want to sell on our 'treasures'.

I'm not saying that this couldn't change. An influx of modern fakes of the highest quality isn't impossible - they are known to exist for other types of coin. I would however be surprised if this happened to most of the coins I collect in the same way that I wouldn't expect a huge rush of fake jubilee shillings.

I suppose confidence could fall to the extent that raw coins become near impossible to sell, but I can't see this happening for a long time if ever. And if the US market in british hammered ever rises to the extent that prices become astronomical I guess I'll just slab up and accept my millions!!!

You can make a case for slabbing mint state full lustre copper because you can't handle these in a carefree manner as you can do with silver. However, even some silver and proofs in general should only be handled with tweezers to eliminate fingerprints. The problem with slabbed coins is that they may as well be on another planet such is the feeling of detachment. It also makes things difficult when checking for errors, and as for the edge - forget it.

[scottishmoney 18]

I voted no, but of course. What does a slab do for a coin besides intomb it in possible reactive and corrosive over long term plastics? The grade that someone else assigns a coin should have nothing do with how the piece appeals to a true collector.

[Sylvester 15]

I agree with what you all said.

In particular i agree with Tom. There was a time back in the days of me being a milled collector when i did place an emphasis on grade. When i say emphasis i don't mean that grade was the 'be and end all' of the coin for me, far from it, but grade did matter. Lets face it when you're staring at a group of 1920s sixpences or shillings you might as well get the BU rather than the VF if you could afford it.

Although the more i think about it the more i wonder if even back then it was really about 'grade', i think grade was actually only the superficial exuse for what i was really buying on. I would by nice lustrous BU sixers because they looked nicer than the dull grey worn VF things sat next to them. Although it took me until hammered to realise that really to me grade for grade's sake didn't mean a great deal!

I have to say even now i still like high grade hammered coins, but the sellers i deal with most often usually stick all their hammered coins in trays ungraded. I've found the grade is almost never stated (they expect you to know yourself). So often i'm buying higher grade coins (without generally taking much explicit notice of what grade the coin is, lets face it i'm too idle to grade), i generally buy coins where the detail is sharp, well struck, and it a nice tone.

Basically i now collect by eye appeal. Which is what i've been doing all along really, but these days i rarely bother grading my purchases. With ancients and hammereds the grade can vary greatly from person to person, so i figured there wasn't much point.

[Red Riley 2]

I agree with what you all said.

In particular i agree with Tom. There was a time back in the days of me being a milled collector when i did place an emphasis on grade. When i say emphasis i don't mean that grade was the 'be and end all' of the coin for me, far from it, but grade did matter. Lets face it when you're staring at a group of 1920s sixpences or shillings you might as well get the BU rather than the VF if you could afford it.

Although the more i think about it the more i wonder if even back then it was really about 'grade', i think grade was actually only the superficial exuse for what i was really buying on. I would by nice lustrous BU sixers because they looked nicer than the dull grey worn VF things sat next to them. Although it took me until hammered to realise that really to me grade for grade's sake didn't mean a great deal!

I have to say even now i still like high grade hammered coins, but the sellers i deal with most often usually stick all their hammered coins in trays ungraded. I've found the grade is almost never stated (they expect you to know yourself). So often i'm buying higher grade coins (without generally taking much explicit notice of what grade the coin is, lets face it i'm too idle to grade), i generally buy coins where the detail is sharp, well struck, and it a nice tone.

Basically i now collect by eye appeal. Which is what i've been doing all along really, but these days i rarely bother grading my purchases. With ancients and hammereds the grade can vary greatly from person to person, so i figured there wasn't much point.

[Red Riley 2]

I am in two minds about slabbing. Instinctively I hate it with a passion, as the joy of coin collecting to me is holding a chunk of history in your hand. What you hold can evoke wars, monarchs, peasant uprisings. There is even the (remote) possibility that the coin was itself held by one of the great figures of the past. Slabbing removes all this and turns collecting into simply peering through a case in a museum, albeit a private one.

But by extension, almost the same can be said of coins in BU condition; they just reflect the engraver's/mint's art, but are undoubtedly less evocative than the more humble coins in VF condition or less - the personal side and individuality of the coin is being removed.

If well marketed, a Europe/UK based slabbing service could be very successful, and I suspect could also have the effect of pushing up prices dramatically in the higher grades. More likely I feel however, is that any such grading company will be under-resourced, under-funded, incompetent and with insufficient clout to create a new line of investment for anyone simply interested in turning a profit. As such it will fail to affect the market one iota, and will act as a disincentive to anyone else making the same attempt for a good number of years.

I apologise if this covers old ground, but I needed to get it off my chest!

[TomGoodheart 373]

Hmm. Playing Devil's advocate and having read Sylvester's comments I suppose one could say perhaps we do need more certification /grading services!

Like Sylvester, I used to collect milled coins. It was quite useful to be able to look through a dealer's catalogue and see a VF 1663 shilling and have a good idea what I might receive. That's because for milled there is a general consistancy to grading between dealers.

With hammered the appeal of an individual coin (and they are all individual!) is very much subjective. Yes the 'grade' will influence the seller's asking price but many dealers simply don't state one!

Now I think we'd all like the best examples we can afford. I remember my delight when I realised I could read the garter legend at the centre of a Geo II shilling, or could make out the 'fur' on the lions on the reverse of an Elizabethan one. These coins really are miniature works of art and it's only on better examples that you can appreciate it. Additionally the difference between a rare variety and the common type can sometimes only be made out in higher grades.

So I suppose that if it could be guaranteed that a coin in a stated grade was always going to be comparable with another it might be useful. And I guess that's exactly what the US market, with it's numeric grading and certification services, is attempting to do. And locking the coin in a little box ensures that you get the coin it claims to be. All well and good.

Reverting to my normal view however (Devil's Devil's advocate??) I am concerned that even in the US, where the system has been going for many years, there are problems. We know of slabbed coins being 'coloured' while in the slab. Of coins resubmitted for regrading, in the hope of a higher grade. Of some companies having a decent reputation while others don't. And this is with milled coins of a limited variety over a (relatively) limited number of years of issue.

The difficulties in introducing such a system somehere like Britain with it's myriad of denominations alone would be a challenge. Attempting to encompass the vaguaries of early milled and hammered coinage will be even more so.

I know I've gone on too much but, just as a last point, here is a link to Goldberg's Jun 2005 auction . I draw your attention to the length of description, particularly to Lot 2161, my favourite and the coin I cited in the earlier thread. I quote "NGC graded MS62 but the cataloguer is at a loss to explain the number." Quite so!!

[Rob 3,002]

If well marketed, a Europe/UK based slabbing service could be very successful, and I suspect could also have the effect of pushing up prices dramatically in the higher grades. More likely I feel however, is that any such grading company will be under-resourced, under-funded, incompetent and with insufficient clout to create a new line of investment for anyone simply interested in turning a profit. As such it will fail to affect the market one iota, and will act as a disincentive to anyone else making the same attempt for a good number of years.

At least if there has to be slabbed coins, then a UK company with a British bias should be able to get the grade right. The biggest problem emanating from the US is a virtually complete lack of understanding what constitutes VF, EF and UNC for early milled issues and hammered. There are so few mint state pieces extant prior to William and Mary that most people will never physically see one, let alone own one. However, I suspect that the problems with resubmission until the required grade is given will transfer across the pond. It's all down to profit.

[Sylvester 15]

It's all down to profit.

Without a doubt.

[josie 8]

It's all down to profit.

Without a doubt.

Before it will go down to profit, would they record it first, all the secrets of BRITISH COINAGE all that is confirmed and need verification,

[Sylvester 15]

Before it will go down to profit, would they record it first, all the secrets of BRITISH COINAGE all that is confirmed and need verification,

What i meant was slabs are generally (i say generally, but NOT always) about investment, getting as much bang for the buck, the best price or return for a coin bought. Prices of coins in the US have skyrocketed since slabbing came in, in the 80s. It makes it easier for investors and novices in the coin world to buy good quality stuff and not worry about things like grading and fakes.*

The question i put forward though is that a good thing or a bad thing? (see below)

How do you feel about this Josie, do you think profits and money spent on coins and returned from selling them the most important factor in numismatics?

(from above)... Slabbing companies are doing alot of the work for US collectors these days (lets ignore the sometimes inaccurate grading that occurs occasionally, or the odd good fake coin fooling the experts [it happens], or heck even the fake coins in fake slabs that have turned up before now). Lets ignore all that. Alot of newer US collectors (and investors) are just going with the grade on the lump of plastic and are taking it as gospel! Is this a good thing? Collectors need to know how to grade for themselves and they need to learn how to spot fakes for themselves, i feel slabs are dumbing down the hobby alot and taking away alot of the learning that has to be done in the formative years as a collector. It's best to make mistakes when you're starting out on cheaper coins and learn from those mistakes than to buy an expensive coin and have no idea how to grade and thus overpay for the coin, only to find out it's a dud because you've never bothered to learn how to spot them because you left it to the grading company to protect you.

I'm not saying slabs are all bad, they have their uses, they are very useful for ease of liquidation of a collection and they offer some kind of protection from the environment, although it varies from slab to slab (but take into account Scottishmoney's statement earlier).

The problem with this debate is how you look at coins, why do you collect them?

Do you think like an investor (does money out and back matter?), do you think like an art/sculpture aesthetic type where it's about preserving the image, the design, the message of the artist who created the coin? Or do you think like an historian/archaeologist whereby it's all down to what the coin may or might have seen and where it may or might have been?

I'm an historian myself, so to me the history matters above almost any other attribute. Thus slabs really don't feature much in my viewpoint, but i can see that they'd be of use for the other two points.

[scottishmoney 18]

I'm not saying slabs are all bad, they have their uses, they are very useful for ease of liquidation of a collection and they offer some kind of protection from the environment, although it varies from slab to slab (but take into account Scottishmoney's statement earlier).

All through history people have thought they were doing the best thing to preserve something, and ended up causing more harm than if they had just left it alone. Classical paintings are a good example of something messed with over time and then subsequently damaged.

The plastics in slabs are claimed to be inert, but how they are impacted by environmental factors such as temperature, humidity etc over time may yet to be known.

I have original rolls of US silver dollars from the 1880's that I put in "inert" plastics and stored in a safety deposit box several years ago, they were blast white before, now they are pink. They had gone over 120 years and stayed white until I removed them from their paper wrapper and put them in plastic.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Before it will go down to profit, would they record it first, all the secrets of BRITISH COINAGE all that is confirmed and need verification,

Hmm.. I'm confused josie. Are you of the impression that 'the secrets of British coinage' aren't otherwise recorded, confirmed and verified? But this is exactly what the British Numismatic Journal and to a lesser extent Spink's Numismatic Circular and even magazines like Coin News do. What is done daily on this and other (lesser!) websites.

Numismatists and collectors write in with newly discovered varieties, theories and whatever so that others can learn or discuss their interests further. I suspect any business entity would have to pay a not-so-small fortune to be able to draw on the range of knowledge and expertise that the above publications alone can do.

[josie 8]

Before it will go down to profit, would they record it first, all the secrets of BRITISH COINAGE all that is confirmed and need verification,

Hmm.. I'm confused josie. Are you of the impression that 'the secrets of British coinage' aren't otherwise recorded, confirmed and verified? But this is exactly what the British Numismatic Journal and to a lesser extent Spink's Numismatic Circular and even magazines like Coin News do. What is done daily on this and other (lesser!) websites.

Numismatists and collectors write in with newly discovered varieties, theories and whatever so that others can learn or discuss their interests further. I suspect any business entity would have to pay a not-so-small fortune to be able to draw on the range of knowledge and expertise that the above publications alone can do.

Thus all find is also recorded in world catalog for other collector to know or only the rare coin is included in the world catalog about the 1957 calm sea variety on seven,It maybe recorded in most of the published paper. but the other collector know? that i didnt know that until I saw it in your site, if they know thus they will include it in there coin gallery in different forum or maybe the collector know it but did not post or include it to his collection even how worn his other collection in the series of coin

If well marketed, a Europe/UK based slabbing service could be very successful, and I suspect could also have the effect of pushing up prices dramatically in the higher grades. More likely I feel however, is that any such grading company will be under-resourced, under-funded, incompetent and with insufficient clout to create a new line of investment for anyone simply interested in turning a profit. As such it will fail to affect the market one iota, and will act as a disincentive to anyone else making the same attempt for a good number of years.

At least if there has to be slabbed coins, then a UK company with a British bias should be able to get the grade right. The biggest problem emanating from the US is a virtually complete lack of understanding what constitutes VF, EF and UNC for early milled issues and hammered. There are so few mint state pieces extant prior to William and Mary that most people will never physically see one, let alone own one. However, I suspect that the problems with resubmission until the required grade is given will transfer across the pond. It's all down to profit.

I agree to that coin so rare only few have it, Exist only in lower grade even how low thier grade is, thier price should be the same as proof for no other greater grade exist , even if the highest grade of that series is fine

[Guest Portman]

I would rather own a coin without a slab and it is enfuriating not being able to see the edge but find slabs provide more confidence to buy from unknown sellers on the Internet.

Time will tell whether the slabs are inert or not. When I was a boy I thought I was protecting my coins by buying PVC flips for them. Several decades later many were reduced to green slime. The grading services admit that coins can colour in the slabs and finger prints can show up after slabbing but they say that is not due to contaminants in the slabs. They claim the slabs are inert but have a degree of porosity which still can allow coins to tone. I have recently bought some corrosion interception bags in the hope these may offer some protection from pollutants in the atmosphere but of course they will not protect against slabs that turn out not to be inert.

Although unexciting in my opinion, due to the lack of variety, the US coin market is huge and there are many coins selling over $100,000 where the difference between an MS 65 or 64 makes a huge difference to the price. It has almost reached the point of a stock market where people who are not really interested in coins buy simply for investment and are buying holders rather than coins. Like it or not, this has created a big liquid market with massive volume being done on the Internet on sites like www.heritageauctions.com. I don't think the UK market has the depth for this to happen and be highly profitable for grading services but who knows. Hammered coins are a certainly a real problem for slabbing, as are cartwheel twopences which are too big to fit into them.

[Sylvester 15]

I have many reasons to dislike slabbing, but you hit the nail on the head there for me. Slabbing has done a number of things;

1) It leads to ridiculous miniscule grading differences. The differences are small but once you acknowledge there is a difference it exists. There's no way to uninvent that difference once it's been accepted. In the UK people think it's UNC, sure we accept there a different types and levels of UNC, but we don't distinguish precisely, we just price it according to what we think demand is for it and see how it goes. Which means as a collector you can get some real bargins.

2) Once the difference between MS64 and MS65 has been distinguished, accepted and implemented though, it ends up becoming a category in a book with a price under it. Which inevitably makes prices go up.

3) The difference between the grades is Miniscule, however the differences between the prices is in inverse proportion to that. It's just ego boasting at the end of the day.

4) Slabbing allows alot of people into the market, which i generally disapprove of. Investors mostly as they are just in it for the profits they can make out of the coins. Which puts the prices up for all us collectors!

From a collecting point of view slabs is 'LOSE, LOSE the whole way to the dealer's bank', from a dealer's point of view it must be the best thing invented!

[Geordie582 18]

I think the poll result says it all! This is one Americanism we can do without!

[coin watch 1]

I think there may well be a coin/auctioneer dealer in the Kent area that are already, if not very soon, slabbing coins as a UK version. I may be wrong but I remember them advertising for new recrutes in a recent edition of Coin news. I do not know if they have set this UK slabbing business up as yet but I thought I would add this to this descussion as a european alternative to the US may already be with us!

[Chris Perkins 223]

It's a London Coins thing (although they are very much in Kent). I'm sort of half trying to ignore it, hoping it will go away! They will have an uphill struggle to get a reputation equal to the far from perfect PCGS and ANACS on the other side of the pond.