Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Rob

1694 Halfpenny Query

Recommended Posts

Does anyone on this forum have or know of anything similar to this enigmatic piece of mine?

Vital statistics are 28.5mm dia. 2.5mm thick and weighs in at 13.47g or about 208 grains ie. nearly 15% above the upper weight limit in Peck. As you can see from the picture the edge is very sharp which raised the possibility of some form of collar being used, but I have dismissed this due to parts looking too uneven. The puzzle is that there appears to be traces of edge lettering albeit very faint which I can't image using the scanner. According to Peck, there were no examples of edge legend used between the tin issues and the Anne patterns yet this appears to have a trace of parts of a NVMMORVM FAMVLVS edge. Given that the facilities would still be present and being only 2 years after the cessation of tin currency production, the possibility exists of an experiment with the edging equipment using copper flans. Possibly significantly, the thickness of the flan is the same as the edge inscribed tin issue. Occasionally you find thick raised lines going across the edge of halfpennies, presumably from when the blanks were cut out of the sheet, but if this is the answer then they have conveniently joined to form consecutive letters. Has anyone got something similar?

post-381-1158363654_thumb.jpg

Edited by Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Aidan Work

Rob,I have got one of these in my collection.The 1/2d. is far harder to find than the 1/4d.Like the 1694 1/4d.,the 1/2d. is also a type coin.There is no inscription on the edge of these coins.If you have got a copy of Spink's 'Coins of England & the United Kingdom',then it will be extremely easy to find.You will be floored by the prices.

Aidan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rob,I have got one of these in my collection.The 1/2d. is far harder to find than the 1/4d.Like the 1694 1/4d.,the 1/2d. is also a type coin.There is no inscription on the edge of these coins.If you have got a copy of Spink's 'Coins of England & the United Kingdom',then it will be extremely easy to find.You will be floored by the prices.

Aidan.

Hi Aiden. The piece in question was struck from an obverse die very much like Nicholson 075 which was 0.04g heavier than this piece at 13.51g and also struck on a thick flan but there are slight differences to the obverse in the positioning of the stops after ET and MARIA compared to this piece. The final stop is notably further away from the bust although the letter alignment compares well. I spent a good 20 minutes comparing the two. The Nicholson piece also didn't have any traces of letters. The traces of lettering that are present are very weak, but sufficiently clear to say that it would be a remarkable coincidence to have spurious edge marks with the correct spacing to read M VS* for example. I had a discussion with Colin Cooke about this at the time who was dismissive because it is accepted that they didn't use collars in this period, but I note they did have an edging machine which was subsequently used for the Anne pattern 1/2ds. It therefore remains quite possible that this is genuinely edge inscribed, but as always requires a better example to confirm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Aidan Work

Rob,there is no inscription on the edge of either the copper 1/4d. or the 1/2d. of the 1694 issue.I am not aware of a Queen Anne pattern 1/2d.,although I did once see a 1713 pattern 1/4d. in silver a few years ago.The silver pattern 1/4d. was of the same design as the famous 1714 1/4d. coin.The Spink catalogue lists varieties in the inscription on the obverse.I think Coincraft also mentions them too.

Although I am from New Zealand,I do collect British Isles coins,& have worked for a coin dealer since late 1997.I am familiar with what English & British coins have inscriptions on the edge.The above coins of 1694 certainly aren't inscribed on the edge.

Aidan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rob,there is no inscription on the edge of either the copper 1/4d. or the 1/2d. of the 1694 issue.I am not aware of a Queen Anne pattern 1/2d.,although I did once see a 1713 pattern 1/4d. in silver a few years ago.The silver pattern 1/4d. was of the same design as the famous 1714 1/4d. coin.The Spink catalogue lists varieties in the inscription on the obverse.I think Coincraft also mentions them too.

Although I am from New Zealand,I do collect British Isles coins,& have worked for a coin dealer since late 1997.I am familiar with what English & British coins have inscriptions on the edge.The above coins of 1694 certainly aren't inscribed on the edge.

Aidan.

Aidan. I am fully aware that there is normally no edge inscription on any currrency copper W+M piece and this is why I started this thread. I have examples of most Peck numbers from 602-607 except for the unbarred A's (P604) and no reverse stop (P605) varieties because I haven't found a gVF or better example of either to say unambiguously that they are not due to infilled dies. I also have other unrecorded varieties such as the GV/B featured on Colin Cooke's website a couple of years ago. I also have most designs of Anne patterns. Unfortunately, Spink is useless when it comes to proofs or patterns and Coincraft although it mentions proofs, usually has a note saying that varieties exist. Therefore it is necessary to refer to Peck for detailed info regarding these pieces.

It is fair to say that there are more obvious traces of letters on this piece than on my plain edge P712 Anne double obv. which is filed and on a similar type Anne pattern, Gregory lot 509, which also had traces of letters despite of the filing and was noted as such in the catalogue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Aidan Work

Rob,if you have got any unrecorded varieties,you should send Spink's an email,including photos.Here's a link to their website; http://www.spink.com .

I'm not familiar with either Peck or Gregory,as none of the dealers over here have heard of these books.

The 1694 coppers were definitely struck without a collar,as collars for coin dies hadn't been invented.

Aidan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rob,if you have got any unrecorded varieties,you should send Spink's an email,including photos.Here's a link to their website; http://www.spink.com .

I'm not familiar with either Peck or Gregory,as none of the dealers over here have heard of these books.

The 1694 coppers were definitely struck without a collar,as collars for coin dies hadn't been invented.

Aidan.

Peck wrote the bible for British base metal currency and is called English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958, first published in 1960. Gregory parts 1 & 2 was the Baldwin auction on 2nd May last and is the next Baldwin sale on 25th September.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob,if you have got any unrecorded varieties,you should send Spink's an email,including photos.Here's a link to their website; http://www.spink.com .

I'm not familiar with either Peck or Gregory,as none of the dealers over here have heard of these books.

The 1694 coppers were definitely struck without a collar,as collars for coin dies hadn't been invented.

Aidan.

Peck wrote the bible for British base metal currency and is called English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958, first published in 1960. Gregory parts 1 & 2 was the Baldwin auction on 2nd May last and is the next Baldwin sale on 25th September.

Interesting coin Rob.

I have a few Cu 1/4ds that, if they were tin, I would be trying to decifer the edges. A copper 1/4d pattern - plain edge in the BMC had this "ghost" letters look.

Edge rimming more likely than a collar I would have thought - is there a raised line on the edge like the tin issues?

Aidan. Rob is being very polite and diplomatic with you. Which is good as this is a friendly forum - and it's great to see you making a contribution!

This is an odd forum for the interwebby thing. For bronze/copper UK coins I would take advice from the regulars here above Spink / Peck etc. Perhaps do what I try - learn from these people - and give advice to the newcomers. If you want to put people in thier place "collars not invented" try to give your reseach - what makes you think that? Collars were probably being used in Europe from 1550 - at least for trials.

Teg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Aidan Work

Teg,I am learning a few things about British coinage,even though I have been collecting for 20 years.I am more active in collecting British Commonwealth though.

Besides,I do work in the numismatic trade,so I have gained some knowledge from experience.I am used to looking up British coinage in both the Spink & Coincraft catalogues,however.

Aidan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a few Cu 1/4ds that, if they were tin, I would be trying to decifer the edges. A copper 1/4d pattern - plain edge in the BMC had this "ghost" letters look.

Edge rimming more likely than a collar I would have thought - is there a raised line on the edge like the tin issues?

Teg

No raised edge like the tin pieces, so the same as the Anne double obverse patterns which at 2.3mm thickness at the rim is a bit less than the 1694. The tin pieces are typically a bit thicker than 2.5mm say 2.8mm and the raised line is very thin so could be the reason why it is not present.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a few Cu 1/4ds that, if they were tin, I would be trying to decifer the edges. A copper 1/4d pattern - plain edge in the BMC had this "ghost" letters look.

Edge rimming more likely than a collar I would have thought - is there a raised line on the edge like the tin issues?

Teg

No raised edge like the tin pieces, so the same as the Anne double obverse patterns which at 2.3mm thickness at the rim is a bit less than the 1694. The tin pieces are typically a bit thicker than 2.5mm say 2.8mm and the raised line is very thin so could be the reason why it is not present.

Hi Rob,

I do find edge engraving interesting - I am off to Zimbabwe for 3 weeks tomorrow - so will have to rejoin this thread later.

Have you tried the bevelled mirror technique for photographing coin edges? Hell of a palaver, but great when it works.

dRUIDSMALL.JPG

If you could do this with your coin - and a tin coin you would see what matched.

Teg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×