Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Guest rnewfie

How Much Are Extremely Rare Coins Worth?

Recommended Posts

Guest rnewfie

Throughout the Spink catalogue, there are coins whose value are listed as 'Extremely Rare'. What does this actually mean in practice? I have a coin which is apparently 'extremely rare' and want to sell it. How much should I ask? I know it's a combination of supply and demand, condition, etc. If I saw a coin listed as extremely rare, how much should I pay for it?

I know this all seems a bit vague, but an extremely rare coin in Very Fine condition will obviously be worth a lot more then in Fine, but by how much?

Is there somewhere on the internet which gives a better guide?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should really tell us what coin it is first.

In my experience each 'extremely rare' coin is different. Some are worth just a couple of hundred pounds, some are worth a couple of thousand, some more. It depends on what it is, and like you say, the demand for whatever denomination it is.

In my book, there are not a lot of occurences of 'extremely rare' and where there are 'extremely rare's they usually concern coins that are highly unlikely to be out there in the hands of the public.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have it exactly -

it's a combination of supply and demand, condition, etc

The price of any coin depends on demand. It would be easier if we knew what your coin is. However the price in Spink of Extremely Rare coins is pretty subjective. They by nature only occasionally come up for sale. Hence the best guide Spink editors will have may be an auction 5, 10 or more years ago.

At any point if there are two coins and two collectors the price will be very different from if there are 20 collectors.

You also have to remember that there has been a shift in coin collecting over the last few years. Great collectors of the past often bought many similar coins and would pay over the odds for one which was slightly different from the norm. Nowadays more people are collecting by 'type' ie they collect only coins that have significant differences in style or design. That's why there is always a strong market for Geo III 'Northumberland' shillings, Charles I Newark seige coins, Wreath crowns etc.

I have two coins of which I only know of one other example apart from mine. They are therefore likely to be quite rare. However I doubt that anyone apart from a specialist collector like myself would pay over the general Spink value for them because the differences from the majority of coins isn't very noticable.

Finally the general rule is that people will pay much more for a common coin in uncommon condition than a well circulated coin, however rare it is.

Edited by TomGoodheart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rarity is very subjective. Freeman, Peck and Rayner all try and specify rarity but at the end of the day it is largely finger in the air guess work. Sometimes rarity is only applied to the number of coin thought to exist in top grade. According to Rayner Extremely rare is the 5th grade down from the top and doesn't even specify a number other than it is greater than 20. I also suspect that often these rarity figures are under estemates. Take the 1921 penny with the 1927 reverse. It is probably as well known in coin collecting circles as the 1933 penny. In the last 12 months there have been at least a couple on ebay and in the last 6 months two at London Coins auction and this is with a supposed total number in existance of only 6 - 15 coins.

Edited by Gary D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It also depends on where you intend to sell this coin. You'll normally get different amounts from dealers than from an auction, than from ebay!

If you tell us what the coin is, ideally with a picture of each side, I imagine there's enough experience on this forum to give you an indication of value. What you try to get for the coin is then up to you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some "extremely rare" coins in Spink aren't and some coins are priced as if they came up every day whereas in fact they are extremely rare. To further muddy the water, the rarity values assigned in Freeman, Rayner, BMC etc are frequently at odds with the number of pieces seen at sales and are really only an indication of what was considered rare in 1964, 1970, 1972, 1985, 1992 etc. Post a couple of pictures and someone will be able to give an idea of scarcity together with a grade and ballpark value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You should really tell us what coin it is first.

In my experience each 'extremely rare' coin is different. Some are worth just a couple of hundred pounds, some are worth a couple of thousand, some more. It depends on what it is, and like you say, the demand for whatever denomination it is.

In my book, there are not a lot of occurences of 'extremely rare' and where there are 'extremely rare's they usually concern coins that are highly unlikely to be out there in the hands of the public.

Thanks for the response, Chris and all the other s who responded. I must admit, I didn't think I'd get any, bearing in mind that I wasn't a member. I've fixed that though - I was so impressed, I have enlisted, so to speak.

I don't want to make an issue of this, especially as this is my first post, but I was genuinely interested as to what 'Extremely Rare' means according to Spink. As part of this investigation, I downloaded your Collectors Coins e-book and found that some of the 'Extremely Rare' coins according to Spink, are listed at anything as low as £200 in the e-book'.

Anyway, the specific coin I was referring to (which sparked off my interest), is a 1723 Half-penny - the thin flan variety (Spink ref: 3660). It's about 1.5 mms larger in diameter than the 1724 which I have and is slightly thinner if you compare them side by side. To be honest, I wouldn't have realised it was the thin flan variety if I hadn't just been handling the 1724 and thought that the 1723 looked a bit bigger! I am assuming it is the thin flan variety, if anyone has a picture of a real one, I would appreciate it.

Thanks again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, despite the daily spam attacks I have kept the ability for non members to post things! I think this is a very important feature.

When I was putting the new gold section together recently, I colaborated with a gold coin expert who sells gold coins every day. He also said that when Spink say 'extremely rare' it can often just mean the coin is scarce (or rare) and that they haven't seen one for a while (a lot of the ER rating look to have been taken from Peck). He then gave me lots of current gold coin values for coins which are 'extremely rare' in Spink. Spink are like a coin jack of all trades, they can't possibly know every area inside out....In fact, last I heard their modern milled position was vacant.

Now what you need to do is verify that your coin really is the thin flan type (personally I'm always very doubtful). In Peck it states that all the halfpennies vary in size from 27.5 - 30mm and that the thickness varies between 1.5 - 1.75mm. I suspect larger coins are also thinner, as they all contain about the same amount of metal.

BMC804 is the number given to the thin 1723 halfpenny in Peck, and it states 'Very thin'. It says that a coin of 4.67g (72.1 grains) would appear to be a genuine thin one....Without wear of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, despite the daily spam attacks I have kept the ability for non members to post things! I think this is a very important feature.

When I was putting the new gold section together recently, I colaborated with a gold coin expert who sells gold coins every day. He also said that when Spink say 'extremely rare' it can often just mean the coin is scarce (or rare) and that they haven't seen one for a while (a lot of the ER rating look to have been taken from Peck). He then gave me lots of current gold coin values for coins which are 'extremely rare' in Spink. Spink are like a coin jack of all trades, they can't possibly know every area inside out....In fact, last I heard their modern milled position was vacant.

Now what you need to do is verify that your coin really is the thin flan type (personally I'm always very doubtful). In Peck it states that all the halfpennies vary in size from 27.5 - 30mm and that the thickness varies between 1.5 - 1.75mm. I suspect larger coins are also thinner, as they all contain about the same amount of metal.

BMC804 is the number given to the thin 1723 halfpenny in Peck, and it states 'Very thin'. It says that a coin of 4.67g (72.1 grains) would appear to be a genuine thin one....Without wear of course.

The weight quoted in Peck would bring the thickness down to less than 1mm, but we don't know the condition of it. If it were worn, then it is possible the thickness was originally 1mm or so thick which is at the bottom end of the farthing flan thickness. It is quite possible that halfpenny sized flans were punched out of a farthing thickness sheet of metal. The thin flan farthing in the Gregory pt.1 sale weighed 3.00g as opposed to a normal piece weighing say 4.75g ish. On this basis, the definition of a very thin flan is therefore approximately 60% of normal.

A slightly related piece of info worth noting is as follows. The P778 (1718) silver 1/2d in the May Baldwins sale is 1.5mm thick as opposed to the normal thickness of 2-2.25mm and this is in line with silver proof farthings which are also struck on a thinner flan. For the record, I think the weight given in BMC for the Peck P778 of 157.3 grains is probably a typographical error. The description of the coin ie. worn with 2 file marks fits it as does the diameter. The actual weight is about 7.45-6g or 115 and a bit grains. Given that only a couple of pieces have ever been recorded, it is highly likely that this is the "P" piece. The 1 of the footnote is probably part of the weight that should have been printed, the decimal point having been moved to accommodate the obvious error of 15.73 grains. Just a thought.

Edited by Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Backing up what was stated above, Spinks are not infallible. I once found myself the proud owner of a coin described in the 2002 version as 'extremely rare' - an 1856 Plain Trident penny. For a year or so, I went all wobbly at the knees when I thought of it. However, the 'mistake' was corrected in the next edition - £65 fine (mine is slightly better). Not exactly enough to retire on - and to be honest, I don't think the coin was ever that rare, but the number of prices listed in the guide are so collosal that some areas will be inadequately investigated and others just carried over from previous years.

So to answer the original question, the value of 'extremely rare' in my case was about half our weekly shopping bill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Backing up what was stated above, Spinks are not infallible. I once found myself the proud owner of a coin described in the 2002 version as 'extremely rare' - an 1856 Plain Trident penny. For a year or so, I went all wobbly at the knees when I thought of it. However, the 'mistake' was corrected in the next edition - £65 fine (mine is slightly better). Not exactly enough to retire on - and to be honest, I don't think the coin was ever that rare, but the number of prices listed in the guide are so collosal that some areas will be inadequately investigated and others just carried over from previous years.

So to answer the original question, the value of 'extremely rare' in my case was about half our weekly shopping bill.

1856 PT pennies are scarce but not rare

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Backing up what was stated above, Spinks are not infallible. I once found myself the proud owner of a coin described in the 2002 version as 'extremely rare' - an 1856 Plain Trident penny. For a year or so, I went all wobbly at the knees when I thought of it. However, the 'mistake' was corrected in the next edition - £65 fine (mine is slightly better). Not exactly enough to retire on - and to be honest, I don't think the coin was ever that rare, but the number of prices listed in the guide are so collosal that some areas will be inadequately investigated and others just carried over from previous years.

So to answer the original question, the value of 'extremely rare' in my case was about half our weekly shopping bill.

1856 PT pennies are scarce but not rare

In lower grades there are certainly plenty about.

In my experience the OT is much rarer, I can only recall ever seeing a couple for sale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now what you need to do is verify that your coin really is the thin flan type (personally I'm always very doubtful). In Peck it states that all the halfpennies vary in size from 27.5 - 30mm and that the thickness varies between 1.5 - 1.75mm. I suspect larger coins are also thinner, as they all contain about the same amount of metal.

I think maybe that Peck are being a little 'cavalier' with their diameter statement. Copper halfpennies from 1672 to 1901 vary from 24mm to 30mm, but they were a fixed size for a particular year. I have copied below a chart which details this. The resolution is +/- 0.5mm.

You will see that the year in question, 1723, halfpennies were made from a 27mm flam. The coin I have is 29mm and comparing it with a 1724 (the same issue), it is significantly bigger.

Anyway, my initial question as to what 'Extremely Rare' means has been answered, so thanks again.

Hope the following is of use to anyone (sorry about the formatting, don't know how to do that) :-

  • Copper Half Pennies From 1672 To 1901
    Years Produced Diameter Spink Ref. Monarch Comments
    1672 – 1675 30 3393 Charles II
    1685 – 1689 29 3419 James II Tin
    1690 – 1692 30 3448 William/Mary Tin
    1694 30 3452 William/Mary
    1695 – 1701 28 3554 William III
    1717 – 1719 26 3659 George I Dump Issue
    1719 – 1724 27 3660 George I
    1729 – 1745 30 3717 George II
    1746 – 1754 28 3719 George II
    1770 – 1799 30 3774/3778 George III
    1806 – 1807 28 3781 George III
    1825 – 1827 27 3824 George IV
    1831 – 1837 27 3847 William IV
    1838 – 1860 28 3949 Victoria
    1860 – 1894 25 3956 Victoria
    1895 – 1901 24 3962 Victoria

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what source was that information?

I don't see how they could have been all the same diameter in 1723 within 0.5mm. They didn't use collars of any kind as far as I know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now what you need to do is verify that your coin really is the thin flan type (personally I'm always very doubtful). In Peck it states that all the halfpennies vary in size from 27.5 - 30mm and that the thickness varies between 1.5 - 1.75mm. I suspect larger coins are also thinner, as they all contain about the same amount of metal.

I think maybe that Peck are being a little 'cavalier' with their diameter statement. Copper halfpennies from 1672 to 1901 vary from 24mm to 30mm, but they were a fixed size for a particular year. I have copied below a chart which details this. The resolution is +/- 0.5mm.

You will see that the year in question, 1723, halfpennies were made from a 27mm flam. The coin I have is 29mm and comparing it with a 1724 (the same issue), it is significantly bigger.

Anyway, my initial question as to what 'Extremely Rare' means has been answered, so thanks again.

Hope the following is of use to anyone (sorry about the formatting, don't know how to do that) :-

  • Copper Half Pennies From 1672 To 1901
    Years Produced Diameter Spink Ref. Monarch Comments
    1672 – 1675 30 3393 Charles II
    1685 – 1689 29 3419 James II Tin
    1690 – 1692 30 3448 William/Mary Tin
    1694 30 3452 William/Mary
    1695 – 1701 28 3554 William III
    1717 – 1719 26 3659 George I Dump Issue
    1719 – 1724 27 3660 George I
    1729 – 1745 30 3717 George II
    1746 – 1754 28 3719 George II
    1770 – 1799 30 3774/3778 George III
    1806 – 1807 28 3781 George III
    1825 – 1827 27 3824 George IV
    1831 – 1837 27 3847 William IV
    1838 – 1860 28 3949 Victoria
    1860 – 1894 25 3956 Victoria
    1895 – 1901 24 3962 Victoria

The diameter of halfpennies before the use of steam driven machinery in 1797 varies even for the same date because they were produced on a fly press without a collar. This means there was no constraint on how much the flan spread when the coin was struck. The flans for the George 1st 2nd issue vary (according to Peck) between 27.5 & 30mm diameter so your coin at 29mm diameter is within the normal range for this issue. The other parameter that needs to be considered therefore is the weight. Peck quotes a range of 144 -160 grains or about 9.3 - 10.4grams. As Peck cannot have seen every example in existence, this is the approximate range for a normal piece so it is probably wise to allow a margin of 5-10% either side of this before considering a coin to be particularly heavy or light. Anything significantly outside these limits warrants further examination. The figure of 27 mm is too small for the second issue. All of my 2nd issue pieces are 28mm or greater with the exception of a very worn brockage which comes in at 27.4mm ie. it was almost certainly within the lower 27.5mm limit when struck. All of these measurements should be viewed as applicable to an unworn coin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×