Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Guest Bob Crawford

1861 over 81 Victorian Penny

Recommended Posts

Guest Bob Crawford

I have a 1861 English (Victorian) penny, that has a clear overdate. It is a 1861, that has been stamped over an 1881. The coin is in EF condition. I can't find any information on price or rarity. Does anyone have any information on this coin? Thanks in advance for your reply. Bob...(RLC35@aol.com). Indianapolis, IN, USA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Bob

This is catalogued as

Freeman 30 or Gouby BP 1861 L

Gouby estimates, R8 - 11-50 in existence

Freeman R18, 6-15 in existence

John Jerrams (in 2003) notes 12 in existence with the best known being nEF and list a price of 1200 GBP

To be honest, if this coin really is EF then it's likely to be the best example extant and therefore catalogue prices are meaningless.

A fine specimen sold for £1000 in a private sale around a year ago.

Hope this helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you get a picture of this coin? I'm interested to see what it looks like... and plus it might help determine if the coin you have is what you say it is.

Edited by Master Jmd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a 1861 English (Victorian) penny, that has a clear overdate. It is a 1861, that has been stamped over an 1881. The coin is in EF condition. I can't find any information on price or rarity. Does anyone have any information on this coin? Thanks in advance for your reply. Bob...(RLC35@aol.com). Indianapolis, IN, USA.

Picture of overdate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob sent me some pics

The overdate is clear, but there's not enough of the coin depicted to grade it - I'll ask for some more

post-32-1136068983_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fab, but no where near EF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's clearly not EF.

The reverse is hard to judge from the pic, but I'd say gF to aVF

Still worth a few bob though & I wish it was mine :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good fine, certainly doesn't make VF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And thanks for buying my book Bob!

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice coins Bob & Custard.... Both a bit better than mine.....

Both also displaying the first 1 over 1 in the date........ A characteristic that I've noticed on ALL the specimens that I have seen so far.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

B&C Collector,

I never looked at the first "1", but I will when I get back to Indiana from California. I guess I was concentrating on the 6/8 only. I did notice the first one looked a little differant than the second one, in the date. Thanks for the info!

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice coins  Bob & Custard....  Both a bit better than mine.....

Both also displaying the first 1 over 1 in the date........ A characteristic that I've noticed on ALL the specimens that I have seen so far.....

It's unlikely there'd be more than one die for this variant so you'd expect them all to have the same features (all the N over sideway N in ONE examples have the 0 of the date over another 0).

To be honest, with coins of this rarity

1. You take any one you can get

2. Condition is almost irrelevant, so long as the differentiating feature(s) are clear. You'd have to pay 2 or 3 times the cost of the examples we have for that EF one that's the finest available and I don't think it's worth it.

If I've got one of the < 20 examples that's good enough for me - the rarity is inherent in the existence of the coin itself whereas for other coins - e.g. a BU 1918H - the rarity is in the condition of the coin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said...

A RARITY is RARE.. regardless of its condition..... and they are always CLASSIC, IDENTIFIABLE, and in DEMAND......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS: In reference to the N/Z, In adddition to the N/Z and the recut O in one, I think they all also have a recut or doubled A in Victoria on the obverse...

post-32-1138203016_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I couldn't edit my response above to add the following......

The 5 examples that I have had at one time or another, as well as the few others that I have seen, all had this trait as well.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry, I couldn't edit my response above to add the following......

The 5 examples that I have had at one time or another, as well as the few others that I have seen, all had this trait as well.....

Mine's the same.

As is this one Michael Gouby's in the process of selling

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/bp_1860_k.htm

Thay all seem to have die cracks on the reverse too ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would seem 1861 over 81 1d isn't so rare. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It would seem 1861 over 81 1d isn't so rare. ;)

I hope it IS :)

In fact I'm sure it is. I've only seen two for sale in the past 8 years - including the one I bought.

Of the currency coins where there are more than a small handful extant this is pretty rare.

Not only it is rare - it's desirable, the two don't always go together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only know of 2 (possibly 3) that have changed hands in the last few years, and about 5 in major collections. plus the one that started this thread......... even if you double that number that still only amounts to 18.......

Still EXTREMELY RARE, and even more so because it is RECOGNIZED and DESIREABLE......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×