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I usually try and ignore varieties where possible, too much miniscule detail and since i still don't have a loupe/magnifier i usually don't bother looking.

I notice copper/bronze coin collectors tend to buy more into this variety business than most other denomination collectors, but i'm guessing this is simply because generally copper/bronze is a cheaper field than say halfcrowns with less demand and therefore you get the chance to study more of them and notice these things.

Bronze and copper varieties are probably collected more as a result of the efforts of Peck, Freeman and Gouby. There is no equivalent to these for silver coinage as ESC is virtually duplicated by Spink so there are no varieties of 1745 and 1758 shillings if the "official" tomes are to be believed, despite being two of the commonest old silver pieces in existence. This clearly isn't the case. This year Spink have added a large number of halfcrown varieties to their book. I know that these were all as a result of the efforts of one collector, so the only way to increase the amount of info in the public domain is either to pester the likes of Spink or produce a similar piece of work the above mentioned. Variety collectors will typically buy them because they know they exist rather than say I think that could be ..... and put their money where their mouth is.

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I think varieties will become THE vogue amongst serious (milled) collectors....especially with the advent of Digital photography,internet etc.

and sharing of information....recent thread on JMd's collection !!!!!!

This is where slabbing might have more of a home.....although not in mine.

My 1/4ds are in Coin trays in which I leave gaps to cater for further varieties.

I also put a paper disc (inert) below the coin descibing the type(and IF it has a published reference).

My worst nightmare would be one of my minx's knocking and mixing up a tray of 1/4'ds..... :blink:

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I think varieties will become THE vogue amongst serious (milled) collectors....especially with the advent of Digital photography,internet etc.

and sharing of information....recent thread on JMd's collection !!!!!!

I moved to hammered to try and avoid the variety scenario.

Allow me to explain, i am by nature a date collector, one of each date for the set, (i avoided copper/bronze because of the varities, too many), i need one of everything for me to feel content that my set is complete.

In the end there were just too many varities of William III sixpences that i tried to ignore but could thus i grew disheartened because i knew i'd never get a full set because as soon as i'd got anywhere near some twit would find more varities for me to have to buy. Plus i've no patience, i wanted the full set like yesterday. That and i really don't want 40 odd 1697 sixpences!

Thus i moved wholesale into hammered, no dates to worry about (so i can finally become a type collector, which is cheaper and easier) and every coin is a totally different anyhow, so the set's finished whenever i decide it's finished and it doesn't matter if they find a new minor type anyhow.

I really don't like varieties much, that's why i like decimal coinage so much. Short sweet sets, one of each date and finished.

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I too like hammered...but....I'm always suspicious....due to their nature they are easily counterfeit.

Therefore tatty,cheap but clearly identifiable. :)

OR some nice slabbed Cnuts :D

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I think varieties will become THE vogue amongst serious (milled) collectors....especially with the advent of Digital photography,internet etc.

and sharing of information....recent thread on JMd's collection !!!!!!

This is where slabbing might have more of a home.....although not in mine.

My 1/4ds are in Coin trays in which I leave gaps to cater for further varieties.

I also put a paper disc (inert) below the coin descibing the type(and IF it has a published reference).

My worst nightmare would be one of my minx's knocking and mixing up a tray of 1/4'ds..... :blink:

How about a thread for unlisted varieties, with pictures in VF or better if this doesn't clog up the forum or lower grades if unambiguous to confirm?

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I too like hammered...but....I'm always suspicious....due to their nature they are easily counterfeit.

Therefore tatty,cheap but clearly identifiable. :)

OR some nice slabbed Cnuts :D

I disagree! With the wealth of reference material available, it is very difficult to produce a convincing forgery - hence the collectors of counterfeits! :rolleyes:

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I too like hammered...but....I'm always suspicious....due to their nature they are easily counterfeit.

Therefore tatty,cheap but clearly identifiable. :)

OR some nice slabbed Cnuts :D

I disagree! With the wealth of reference material available, it is very difficult to produce a convincing forgery - hence the collectors of counterfeits! :rolleyes:

You could argue it the other way around. It's harder to produce a forgery of a hammered coin because firstly you have to make it look 800 years old or whatever, so it's going to need toning for a start.

Secondly modern materials available might make the coin look too good, too well struck or too well centred for a certain issue and thus it'll scream forgery to those in the know.

Minting say a forgery of a late victorian bronze penny making use of a modern coining press, (especially if original dies are somehow acquired, and there still are some out there of various issues as they occasionally turn up on ebay) and minting full lustre bronze, who's going to know?

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I think wybrit hit the nail on the head when he said "slabbed coins more than return the investment made to grade them if and when it is time to sell. I have yet to meet a British Numismatist that is interested in renumeration. "

(1) There are loads of "British numismatists interested in renumeration." Unless you received your coins as a gift or an inheritance, you wouldn't have the quality collections you do have without these numismatists.

The Cheshire Collection that Emperor Oli is drooling over in a separate thread and currently listed on ebay is a prime example of an interest in maximising the return when selling. I'm 99% certain whose collection this is and if right, 100% certain he is English. The idea that English collectors are not interested in profit will clearly not apply in this instance - so I'm on Wybrit's side. They are all slabbed and some have been acquired and slabbed very recently, presumably for the auction. If estimates are reached, the seller will be quids in over a very short space of time -grrrr, should have bid higher.

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I too like hammered...but....I'm always suspicious....due to their nature they are easily counterfeit.

Therefore tatty,cheap but clearly identifiable. :)

OR some nice slabbed Cnuts :D

I disagree! With the wealth of reference material available, it is very difficult to produce a convincing forgery - hence the collectors of counterfeits! :rolleyes:

You could argue it the other way around. It's harder to produce a forgery of a hammered coin because firstly you have to make it look 800 years old or whatever, so it's going to need toning for a start.

Secondly modern materials available might make the coin look too good, too well struck or too well centred for a certain issue and thus it'll scream forgery to those in the know.

Minting say a forgery of a late victorian bronze penny making use of a modern coining press, (especially if original dies are somehow acquired, and there still are some out there of various issues as they occasionally turn up on ebay) and minting full lustre bronze, who's going to know?

I agree with Syl, hammereds can be more difficult when you factor in the manner in which they were minted, ie with a hammer and dies. Even a lot of ancients forgeries are struck in presses, which show metal flow lines in the coins that were not on the actual ancients. Metal flow on hammereds is more difficult due to the thin flan to work with, and the metal flow.

I would be more cautious of course with William I or some Stephen pieces because of their rarity, but if you know what you are collecting you should be able to differentiate.

BTW back to slabs, it is a dirty little secret that some forgeries have slipped through the nets in some of the USA slabbing companies, recently PCGS revealed that numerous Morgan Dollar forgeries in silver and from the late 19th century were so convincingly authentic looking that they had been certified. Far from being scorned these pieces are becoming highly collectible, because they were period countefeits and were amazingly well executed.

Edited by krasnaya_vityaz

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Thanks for moving the topic over, Sylvester.

I have missed quite a bit of action here.

I nearly bought an EF 40 slabbed gothic florin....but I couldn't see it past a VF/GVF.

This is about the right conversion. American EF is most definitely an inferior grade to British EF. British EF is more like AU58 or even in some cases, MS61, 62 or 63.

I think varieties will become THE vogue amongst serious (milled) collectors....especially with the advent of Digital photography,internet etc.

and sharing of information....recent thread on JMd's collection !!!!!!

This is where slabbing might have more of a home.....although not in mine.

I agree with point #1 - varieties are becoming very popular. That said, I don't see slabs penetrating that area anytime soon, unless a British slabbing outifit becomes prominent. Those learned in British varieties do not work in American slabbing companies. Peter is absolutely right in his point about US slabbers not knowing "where to start."

To close, the accuracy of what is written on the slab insert is debatable, especially given the relatively limited experience and access to examples US slabbers have. A cleaned coin is still a cleaned coin; a problem coin is still a problem coin; the better slabbing companies (PCGS, NGC) know how to get that right.

Edited by wybrit

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I've just bought a Bury penny...can't identify it yet........suspect 10a,b....can't wait.....even Mrs Peter is exicited :D:D:D Night night

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