Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Recommended Posts

21 hours ago, Rob said:

If you went to a restaurant and got refused entry, you wouldn't go back a second time. So why use Facebook if it is policed by a robot you can't discuss problems with?  The internet is littered with 'Scunthorpe' problems and analogues thereof. 

  ....now you're being niggardly....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rob said:

So what happens on Facebook when you are discussing Negro's Head marked coins? Anyone young and brought up in today's PC world might acquire a ticket with NH in the future and not be able to ask the question and get an answer to what it means without being blocked. 

People need to stop being offended on behalf of others, who, if they have half a brain will recognise that the offence is caused by context, and not just the use of any particular word(s).

Science is going to suffer too. Stefan's Law will have to be explained in some other way, so good luck with that one.

Actually "negro" is ok as it's Spanish for black. That will get past the algorithm. 

You have to be quite inventive sometimes if you think a word might be dodgy. So if negro was, you could say "kneegrow", which the algorithm wouldn't recognise. Or else write it all down elsewhere, and post a screenshot. The algorithm is not trained to spot issues with pictures, so the most appalling pictures with equally appalling narrative can be posted without a murmur. 

I've only ever reported one post, and that was when a guy who said he was owed money took a screenshot from his personal messages of the individual's name, address and telephone No, and posted it for the world to see. Someone else who lived in the same town said he would go round and "sort him out". An obvious implied threat of violence. 

I reported it, but there was no freetext, only a series of tick boxes, so it was impossible to explain what I meant. Predictably it came back to me as allowed - it was treated as OK, and stayed. So "a chink in the armour" got me a 3 day ban. But revealing someone's private address and a subsequent threat of physical violence is fine.      

That's the way it is these days.

Edited by 1949threepence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ANYWAY, maybe back to the original topic (and this comes from one with borderline A.D.D.).....IMHO, not all coins have risen in price recently and some remain a bit forlorn. IMHO this is at least a bifurcated market with the big ticket gold coins like the Una and all seeming to reach for the heights of Heaven and other coins languishing just a bit - such as those that got me started in predecimal so many years ago (Wreath crowns) and that have made little headway if any.

And true it is that some coins such as the aforementioned proof sets of 1950 and '51 have risen a bit, but this is mainly on the strength of some having relatively nicer cameo coins in them, which if TPG graded can rise to the heights.

Some "middle ground" coins like the 1937 proof sov have not moved much in the last 2-3 years but had in the 5-10 prior to that. Does this represent a relative softening in price rises? Other mid ground coins like the 1839 proof half crown have stalled a bit with the exception of especially high TPG graded coins and those that have the big grade number. The latter are dangerous territory grounds for the collector and have served dealers well; I say that because at least in my opinion, that the TPG grades can be a bit subjective and yet very much influence the price fetched, especially in venues such as Monaco or Heritage or the big London auction houses...

More comments?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VickySilver said:

ANYWAY, maybe back to the original topic (and this comes from one with borderline A.D.D.).....IMHO, not all coins have risen in price recently and some remain a bit forlorn. IMHO this is at least a bifurcated market with the big ticket gold coins like the Una and all seeming to reach for the heights of Heaven and other coins languishing just a bit - such as those that got me started in predecimal so many years ago (Wreath crowns) and that have made little headway if any.

And true it is that some coins such as the aforementioned proof sets of 1950 and '51 have risen a bit, but this is mainly on the strength of some having relatively nicer cameo coins in them, which if TPG graded can rise to the heights.

Some "middle ground" coins like the 1937 proof sov have not moved much in the last 2-3 years but had in the 5-10 prior to that. Does this represent a relative softening in price rises? Other mid ground coins like the 1839 proof half crown have stalled a bit with the exception of especially high TPG graded coins and those that have the big grade number. The latter are dangerous territory grounds for the collector and have served dealers well; I say that because at least in my opinion, that the TPG grades can be a bit subjective and yet very much influence the price fetched, especially in venues such as Monaco or Heritage or the big London auction houses...

More comments?

The gold 4 set £5. £2, £1 and half sovereign 1937 proof set seems to have risen quite substantially in price over the last few years - as far as I can tell anyway.  

Quite a popular purchase. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I somewhat agree, I think my point was that there was a big rise that seems to have tapered in the last year or two. I say that because I bought the Terner specimen of the 1937 Sov in 65CAM and so followed it as a test case & that is what I have seen. 

Frankly, with regards to this set, I do not understand the interest or rise in these except from a speculative sense...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Although I somewhat agree, I think my point was that there was a big rise that seems to have tapered in the last year or two. I say that because I bought the Terner specimen of the 1937 Sov in 65CAM and so followed it as a test case & that is what I have seen. 

Frankly, with regards to this set, I do not understand the interest or rise in these except from a speculative sense...

I think it must have some charismatic attraction, quite distinct from speculation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe, though George himself not overly possessed of such....LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elizabeth keeps blowing me away!

Noonans today: £540 for the 1567, and around £550 for the contemporary counterfeit!

 

IMG_7627.jpeg

IMG_7628.jpeg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am amazed that a contemporary counterfeit is worth so much. What's the reason?

I really regret not getting a decent E1 shilling (or even an E1 sixpence) years ago when the prices were not so crazy. It's outside my price range now unfortunately. 

Edited by Sword
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sword said:

I am amazed that a contemporary counterfeit is worth so much. What's the reason?

I really regret not getting a decent E1 shilling (or even an E1 sixpence) years ago when the prices were not so crazy. It's outside my price range now unfortunately. 

I cannot fathom why a counterfeit should be so desirable? It has a little bit of kudos from being in W. Wilkinson’s collection, but not £550 quid’s worth of kudos? I’m stunned!

The nice Elizabeth coins are absolutely flying at the moment…no rhyme nor reason to it, simply crazy! Maybe it only takes just one person with unlimited funds to suddenly get excited about Tudor coins for a couple of years, buying all the nice bits…this could potentially skew the market for years to come? I can’t think of any other explanation for such a significant spike in prices?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Coinery said:

Maybe it only takes just one person with unlimited funds to suddenly get excited about Tudor coins for a couple of years, buying all the nice bits…this could potentially skew the market for years to come?

It takes two to tango, surely? 

Edited by Menger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Menger said:

It takes two to tango, surely? 

I assume that if they are selling fast, then dealers will increase their prices and will be willing to bid higher in auctions. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Sword said:

I assume that if they are selling fast, then dealers will increase their prices and will be willing to bid higher in auctions. 

So the dealers then compete in auctions with the guy they hope to sell to - thus bidding up price? 

Edited by Menger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have noticed that other cont counterfeits are selling at much higher prices than I have seen in the last five years ....Pieces of 8 dollars countermarked with prices of £150 plus 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Menger said:

It takes two to tango, surely? 

It obviously does, but the individual with the deep pockets and the determination to obtain, will take those of lesser means with him, part of the way, until they drop out, and he has won. Thus gaining the item, but at a much higher price than if he had been completely unopposed. A "bidding war" - the psychology of which is to suck bidders in to fight for items they wouldn't be so bothered about in more sober reflective moments. 

It can start with several tangoing, not just two.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

It obviously does, but the individual with the deep pockets and the determination to obtain, will take those of lesser means with him, part of the way, until they drop out, and he has won. Thus gaining the item, but at a much higher price than if he had been completely unopposed. A "bidding war" - the psychology of which is to suck bidders in to fight for items they wouldn't be so bothered about in more sober reflective moments. 

It can start with several tangoing, not just two.   

Yes it is possible people just go nuts in auctions when confronted by a bid one increment higher that their max.  I am skeptical this is the general state of affairs that explains higher trends in price.  
 

From my own introspection, when I have been tempted to bid more than I planned, I would say in retrospect that the process actually better flushed out bids from me that properly reflected the max I would actually pay (rather than hoped to pay).  On that theory, I have never bought a coin in an auction for more than just a bit more than someone else actually valued it at that time. (Save for the odd coin I have managed to get with no other bids).  

My sense is auctions are generally very effective at real price discovery - but with a huge caveat that the market must be liquid (I.e., there must be at least two tangero).  This may not be the case for more specialist varieties and wot not. I just picked up 3 modest (but scarce) coins at Noonans that went for a fraction of what I was prepared to pay - my dance partner(s) just failed to show up. Perhaps the music (small silver) was a bit out of fashion?  Not that I care. 

Edited by Menger
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Menger said:

It takes two to tango, surely? 

Yes, but, as has already been said, I think a determined and unlimited-funds buyer can draw a few up the ladder with him/her. I know that I went a few bids beyond my own good reasoning, and I wasn’t overly desperate (I have a 1567), or can say that I had the money to spend.

I believe it can definitely drive the prices up if someone decides they want an amazing Elizabethan collection, and sets out to buy all the nice pieces for a year or two, until perhaps they get bored?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Talking about Noonans, I'd logged in to bid for the F24, but unfortunately got involved in an idiotic teams call from work, which took up an inordinate amount of time. When the call ended, it was too late. I noted that the hammer price was £900 - actually about the same price as the last F24 went for at LCA a few years ago. Missed out on that as well.

£900 for someone. But how much higher would it have gone if I'd been bidding. Given the rarity I think I'd have been happy to max at £1250.  

At the same time, I noticed that the 1841 penny - probably erroneously slabbed as a proof - went for £2k hammer. 

 

 

Edited by 1949threepence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I did not see the 1841 penny as proof with a less than desirable (or acceptable IMHO) strike. I do confess to getting the 1958 Halfcrown in proof however....LOL

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 1841 "proof" could start an interesting discussion between the buyer and Noonan's. I'm pretty sure from the photos that it's not a proof but where does a buyer stand when it's been graded by a reputable TPG as a Proof ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, secret santa said:

The 1841 "proof" could start an interesting discussion between the buyer and Noonan's. I'm pretty sure from the photos that it's not a proof but where does a buyer stand when it's been graded by a reputable TPG as a Proof ? 

Don't know - that's an interesting one. Trouble is, as we know from real life experience, what we pretty much know for a fact, often comes across as weak and unconvincing when confronting (in this case) a top auction house.

I don't think that saying the TPG company is simply accepting what the slabbing applicant asserts is a particularly effective way forward, as it sounds a tad aggressive. But the buyer could say he'd only just noticed that the coin has no colons after REG, whereas all known 1841 proofs, do have colons after REG.

Not sure what Noonans small print has to say on issues such as this.

Whatever approach is taken, it's not going to be easy that's for certain.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the relevant Noonan's small print:-
 

Quote

 

13 Liability of Noonans and sellers
(a) Goods auctioned are usually of some age.
All goods are sold with all faults and imperfections and errors of description. Illustrations in catalogues are for identification only. Buyers should satisfy themselves prior to the sale as to the condition of each lot and should exercise and rely on their own judgement as to whether the lot accords with its description. Subject to the obligations accepted by Noonans under this Condition, none of the seller, Noonans, its servants or agents is responsible for errors of descriptions or for the genuineness or authenticity of any lot. No warranty whatever is given by Noonans, its servants or agents, or any seller to any buyer in respect of any lot and any express or implied conditions or warranties are hereby excluded.

(b) Any lot which proves to be a ‘deliberate forgery’ may be returned by the buyer to Noonans within 15 days of the date of the auction in the same condition in which it was at the time of the auction, accompanied by a statement of defects, the number of the lot, and the date of the auction at which it was purchased. If Noonans is satisfied that the item is a ‘deliberate forgery’ and that the buyer has and is able to transfer a good and marketable title to the lot free from any third party claims, the sale will be set aside and any amount paid in respect of the lot will be refunded, provided that the buyer shall have no rights under this Condition if:

(i) the description in the catalogue at the date of the sale was in accordance with the then generally accepted opinion of scholars and experts or fairly indicated that there was a conflict of such opinion; or

(ii) the only method of establishing at the date ofpublication of the catalogue that the lot was a ‘deliberate forgery’ was by means of scientific processes not generally accepted for use until after publication of the catalogue or a process which was unreasonably expensive or impractical.

 

Not looking too good for any dispute from the buyer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Here's the relevant Noonan's small print:-
 

Not looking too good for any dispute from the buyer.

Rearrange these words to make a sentence: "well their they arses covered have"

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Rearrange these words to make a sentence: "well their they arses covered have"

Let the buyer beware :ph34r:

But yes, they are obviously determined to absolve themselves of any responsibility for error in description. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/29/2023 at 9:18 PM, 1949threepence said:

Would like to upgrade the F68 & F78, but again, they don't come up. 

Might be able to help you with the F78 Mike. Thinning down the collection, and got a good example of ja reverse on my 1875.............so guess that'll do for my needs.

My F78 is aUNC with some lustre. Email me if you want to consider buying.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×