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secret santa

24 Hours in Police Custody

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44 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Bias towards the criminal and away from the victim. That's self evident from the entire thread topic and posts. 

Sorry you're still having issues getting your head round it. 

well you are "trying to get my head around it" and yet I am not convinced by it .  It seems a little conspiratorial in its underlying nature that a randomly selected group of individuals listen and carefully decide on the facts....not on the emotions.  

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3 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

it might not be in the public interest but the rights of the dead man still have to be considered ....even if he should not have been there.  and it would very much depend on the nature of the killing in self defence 

I don't agree and I'm sure the CPS would want to avoid what would obviously be public and media mayhem if they took the hypothetical old woman to trial. 

The public will consider that the dead man, who invaded the old woman's property, lost all rights the moment he did so.      

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30 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

That's an absurd argument as he was not an out of control driver. he merely lost control at one point on the journey.

  

that was his legal argument I am assuming , but there is no doubt a car is a weapon in all circumstances if misused 

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1 minute ago, DrLarry said:

well you are "trying to get my head around it" and yet I am not convinced by it .  It seems a little conspiratorial in its underlying nature that a randomly selected group of individuals listen and carefully decide on the facts....not on the emotions.  

The facts are the facts. What is in question here is the interpretation of those facts. 

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Just now, DrLarry said:

that was his legal argument I am assuming , but there is no doubt a car is a weapon in all circumstances if misused 

Evidence that it was being "misused"? 

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29 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I don't agree and I'm sure the CPS would want to avoid what would obviously be public and media mayhem if they took the hypothetical old woman to trial. 

The public will consider that the dead man, who invaded the old woman's property, lost all rights the moment he did so.      

but I , like you, am a member of the public.....I would hope that no actions would be taken if reasonable force were used.  if he were armed with something other than his arms (although they too can kill the old lady) anyways it is hypothetical , some rights are lost ( the right to freedom) but not 100% his right to life 

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31 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Evidence that it was being "misused"? 

well obviously that is what the jury decided  not me 

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32 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

The facts are the facts. What is in question here is the interpretation of those facts. 

but the fact is evidence shows he lost control and as such could have lost control at any point killing someone else.  

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On 12/6/2022 at 9:30 AM, 1949threepence said:

Tell that to the police who've knocked down and killed innocent passers by in hot pursuit of a criminal. 

 

1 hour ago, DrLarry said:

that was a terrible case and I believe the offenders are both serving life?  

There are numerous cases. Take a read of this link.

I'd point you to one paragraph, which sums it up for me:-

Quote

As a result of the Matthew Seddon verdict, Thames Valley police told me it had “reviewed a number of our policies and our training and improved the way we respond to incidents”. The police force brought misconduct proceedings against five of its officers involved in the Seddon chase, clearing three. One was given management advice. Another was found to have breached the standards of duties and responsibilities, but received no sanction.

 

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37 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

That's an absurd argument as he was not an out of control driver. he merely lost control at one point on the journey.

  

but he was not on a journey to Lidl to buy croissants he was in a high speed chase which he could "not control" lose control at a bend.  It is just a fact in this case that he was not trained in high speed pursuit.  Over what distance did this chase occur?   What speeds were registered?  the collision would have provided factual evidence along with witness and other evidence 

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4 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

but the fact is evidence shows he lost control and as such could have lost control at any point killing someone else.  

Anybody can lose control of their vehicle. It happens with great regularity.

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29 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

 

There are numerous cases. Take a read of this link.

I'd point you to one paragraph, which sums it up for me:-

 

I am sorry I do not know the context 

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29 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Anybody can lose control of their vehicle. It happens with great regularity.

yes sadly it does but there is often driver error and sadly some people die as a result and in the case of error such cases may go to trial 

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2 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

but he was not on a journey to Lidl to buy croissants he was in a high speed chase which he could "not control" lose control at a bend.  It is just a fact in this case that he was not trained in high speed pursuit.  Over what distance did this chase occur?   What speeds were registered?  the collision would have provided factual evidence along with witness and other evidence 

But the police believe that the public want criminals to be pursued at high speed, despite the potential dangers to others. From the Guardian article I linked to above:- 

Quote

The Thames Valley officer who started the Matthew Seddon chase, and who kept on it till the end, said several times while under investigation: “I believe it’s what the public would have wanted me to do.” A spokesperson for the College of Policing, which helps train officers to chase, said: “The public expect their police service to catch criminals.” We want the chase – or that is what police have come to understand. After a novel form of street crime began to cause panic in 2016, the public declared this interest more explicitly.

 

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3 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

I am sorry I do not know the context 

So you're having difficulty following the article? It's about high speed police chases where innocent people get killed.  

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33 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

 

There are numerous cases. Take a read of this link.

I'd point you to one paragraph, which sums it up for me:-

 

sadly yes I think chase is a complex issue ...if the police consider anything I am sure they weight up if the chase is warranted i.e the criminals may do more harm if not apprehended .  Listen I dont agree with many things the police do but those in cars do at least have some training

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30 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

So you're having difficulty following the article? It's about high speed police chases where innocent people get killed.  

no at the time I had not read the article  I ws simply informing you of that 

Edited by DrLarry

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Just now, DrLarry said:

sadly yes I think chase is a complex issue ...if the police consider anything I am sure they weight up if the chase is warranted i.e the criminals may do more harm if not apprehended .  Listen I dont agree with many things the police do but those in cars do at least have some training

They may well do, but they don't receive much sanction when innocent folk get killed as a result.

White got 22 months and no-one was killed. 

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1 minute ago, DrLarry said:

no at the time I had not read the article  I ws simply informing you of that 

well read the article and then reply !

You don't need to make an interim statement.

 

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28 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

well read the article and then reply !

You don't need to make an interim statement.

 

well it  is my  prerogative to type a couple of lines as I choose fit....  interim or otherwise .  

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31 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

well read the article and then reply !

You don't need to make an interim statement.

 

it would seem that you are strongly of the belief that Mr White should not have been given a custodial sentence.  Of course you have right to believe that as will many others.  Some may feel that the legal system did its duty with the evidence presented.  We are unlikely to agree on this issue and on the other issue of police deaths those are cases aside which presumably are investigated and if in the end a policy of non chase becomes practiced then no doubt that will also be seen as yet another bias in favour of the criminal  But it will be based on the weighing up he risks  posed by that action verses value to the public to apprehend.  I cannot say which will win out .  I brought up police chase simply as a way of comparing Mr Whites skills verses Police pursuit skills .  He is likely to have done it once in his life and is judged on that basis. 

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it is most likely easier to agree to disagree.  For you to contribute to is legal fees.  I acknowledge your arguments and appreciate your position.  It is good to have such debates and I have enjoyed the discussion.  We don't have to agree either way there are lessons to learn from the topic and the incident itself.  It will detach me even further from any desire to protect property and it acts as a warning not to act in anyway that causes harm.  So it has taught me valuable additions to my own experiences in life.  I work often in high stress threatening situations at work in the Townships in Sub Saharan Africa and often we see violence  and for the sake of property.   I would only ever  intervene to protect those children I work with I would forcefully inhibit anyones "desire" to cause harm with a big stick or place my body in between the perpetrator and those in my care.  I would be upset for the kids in the projects and those in the future involved  if someone stole my collection as it does provide a legacy to the charity.  But would I protect it beyond a certain limit ...no certainly not if it caused me harm or my dogs.  in the end it is just bits of flattened metal with pretty pictures on it, bought with other bits of paper versions of the same.  Karma will sort it out at some point when she feels fit. 

Edited by DrLarry

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I originally posted this because of the disgust that I felt with the lack of punishment dealt out to the serial offenders. I also felt that Adam White's punishment was unduly harsh in the circumstances although it wasn't really feasible that he would have been completely exonerated. A much smaller punishment (suspended sentence perhaps) for him and a much harsher punishment for the burglars would have been more acceptable to the general public in my opinion.

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30 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I originally posted this because of the disgust that I felt with the lack of punishment dealt out to the serial offenders. I also felt that Adam White's punishment was unduly harsh in the circumstances although it wasn't really feasible that he would have been completely exonerated. A much smaller punishment (suspended sentence perhaps) for him and a much harsher punishment for the burglars would have been more acceptable to the general public in my opinion.

on this I would agree a suspended sentence would have been a better resolution from an outside point of view it is hard to know why this was not the case .  a suspended sentence usually is made if it is a first offence and the emotional forces driving the crime are not part of a repeated experience.  We are led to assume  he had no prior convictions or points for traffic or driving  offences.  

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3 hours ago, DrLarry said:

on this I would agree a suspended sentence would have been a better resolution from an outside point of view it is hard to know why this was not the case .  a suspended sentence usually is made if it is a first offence and the emotional forces driving the crime are not part of a repeated experience.  We are led to assume  he had no prior convictions or points for traffic or driving  offences.  

ah, some meeting of minds at last. I too would agree with that.

and the intruders, do you agree they should have received harsher punishments?

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