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Menger

1853 currency groat?

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This looks like a proof to me: sharp strike in hair and dense (almost cameo) cheek. The shadows above the FOUR where the tone has not settled looks just like my own proof of that year - presumably from where it spent its early years in a silk lined set box. 

Any second opinions? 
 

https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/calendar/661/catalogue/437522/?keywords=Groat&x=0&y=0

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Hard to tell on this date as so few were struck - even currency many times are quite prooflike.  ESC/Bull really IMHO falls apart and gives R2 rating for the 1853/2. This in currency and even proof is a rare coin. Proofs come with plain and milled edges as well. 

Will look later on laptop. 

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11 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Hard to tell on this date as so few were struck - even currency many times are quite prooflike.  ESC/Bull really IMHO falls apart and gives R2 rating for the 1853/2. This in currency and even proof is a rare coin. Proofs come with plain and milled edges as well. 

Will look later on laptop. 

Thanks.

Michael Gouby points out on his website that the proofs were minted up beyond the year 1853 - perhaps to the 1880s.  Thus as well as proofs mulled with the later young head, Michael identifies proofs with the first young head but worn dies (missing rim teeth).  Some of these have been (I believe) presented at auction as currency strikes in recent years but this example is not even that - the rims are intact.  
 

While it is possible this is a proof-like currency, I don’t have confidence  in NGC to make the distinction based in their seemingly random treatment of maundy, currency and proof 3ds.  So I guess it is a coin toss … 

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I had another look. IMHO I would have to call both proof based on fields and type of toning especially on the first, and the way the devices and rim are struck. Also semi condemned as Maundy would likely be the 3 pence coins of the dates 1847, 1848, 1852 and several others. These IMO have again the fields and strike presentation of Maundy - and this would be again the strike and fields. 
the 1847/6 groat looks nice but still stuck on iPad so can’t see for sure if the under digit is 6 or 8. Also I need a better look at the 1853 3d, which in currency and not Maundy is rather scarce.  I will look again tomorrow at these. 

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1 hour ago, VickySilver said:

I had another look. IMHO I would have to call both proof based on fields and type of toning especially on the first, and the way the devices and rim are struck. Also semi condemned as Maundy would likely be the 3 pence coins of the dates 1847, 1848, 1852 and several others. These IMO have again the fields and strike presentation of Maundy - and this would be again the strike and fields. 
the 1847/6 groat looks nice but still stuck on iPad so can’t see for sure if the under digit is 6 or 8. Also I need a better look at the 1853 3d, which in currency and not Maundy is rather scarce.  I will look again tomorrow at these. 

Thanks. I agree with all of that. I was wondering about the 1846 also. The 1853 has a footnote saying it may be a proof - the lower struck 3 is in the same position as that on a Maundy proof that sold over the summer at Noble. 

The 1847/6 groat is in my view 1847/8. I am basing this on the analysis by Michael Gouby in his website on the issue - where he argues that the 1847/6 is a misnomer.  In any case - the Noonans listed coin is identical to an 1847/8 in my collection.  Mine was eventually  categorized by NGC as 1847/8 - but only after I complained when they initially labeling it first as 1847/6 and then 1848/7! (That did not impress me!).  Finally when I complained again NGC correctly relabeled my coin 1847/8 but at the same time they relabeled the entire category of 1848/7 in their population report as 1847/8!!!! So now they have correctly listed my coin as 1847/8 but have incorrectly listed 4 other coins in the same category as 1847/8 when these were hitherto all 1848/7!  I told NGC of their mistake some 8 months ago but nothing has changed yet …. NGC have one other 1847/6 which in my view (following Gouby) is also likely 1847/8.
 

Anyway - the one coming up at Noonans is the second best 1847/8 I have seen.  It was sold previously by DNW in June 2017 when they listed it as “1847/6 or 8”.  


 What a muddle! 

I am interested in any further thoughts you have on the 1853 and 1846 3ds. 

Edited by Menger

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Indeed, I will try to post a picture tomorrow of what may actually be an 1847/6 groat that looks different than my two 1847/8 coins. I think there may also be the 1848/7 as I have some that appear that way to me. 

I have a feeling that this consignor got many of these en bloc and was soLd many of these as currency. Note that Maundy come as proof like; satin, currency-appearing and probable proofs just to confuse even more.  

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4 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Indeed, I will try to post a picture tomorrow of what may actually be an 1847/6 groat that looks different than my two 1847/8 coins. I think there may also be the 1848/7 as I have some that appear that way to me. 

I have a feeling that this consignor got many of these en bloc and was soLd many of these as currency. Note that Maundy come as proof like; satin, currency-appearing and probable proofs just to confuse even more. 

Thanks. Yes there is a 48/7 but this is much more common than the rare 47/8. Here is my 47/8. 
 

1BA02BD2-2D6C-47D0-A080-8810E1284850.gif

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1 minute ago, Menger said:

Thanks. Yes there is a 48/7 but this is much more common than the rare 47/8. Here is my 47/8. 
 

1BA02BD2-2D6C-47D0-A080-8810E1284850.gif

And 48/7. 

32F0A52B-1796-4098-848A-CA427A9DAF2F.jpeg

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Not sure how anybody could think that the 1847/8 was an 1847/6, a nice coin and obvious overdate. 

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A day late and a dollar short on the 1847/6(or 8)

0D1230E2-CC8D-48D3-B275-90DCF3877DFB.jpeg

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Thanks. Very nice to see. This seems to be the only one graded as PCGS (if that is right).

After my post I got back in touch with NGC and they have now agreed to sort out their population: they will recreate an 1848/7 category and an 1847/6 or 8 category (which will then contain 3 coins, including mine and a details grade).  Hooray! 
 

I have two other coins with NGC that should be the only examples graded in the NGC census but because they have been submitted for conservation (and the prior numbers not cancelled) the population is now over stated 200% and 300% respectively.  I think these population errors must be common. I am now motivated to get NGC to sort those out too.  Let’s see what they say … 
 

Thanks again for the photo. 

Edited by Menger
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Ah, thanks and sorry for the terrible quality. It is in fact the PCGS coin; I have one raw as well and looks possibly a bit more like an "over 6". These do seem to have some residual of possible upper loop of the 8 the right of the 7 at the top (well not 100%) on that. I have a couple of the other overdates if you are ever interested but as with Richard I am happy to send emails since my posting capacity on photos is abysmal.

Did you see the 1853 groat proof ?pattern? that was sold out of Colin Cooke just the other day? Later bust type of Vicky on the obverse.....

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I would be delighted to see any interesting groats. I did not see the Colin Cooke. Was it just listed in their website?  There does not appear to be anything there now. 

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It was on their new listing for the month. Unfortunately I am so limited that I can send email of pictures but have real problems getting images down to low enough resolution from laptop. I will PM you my email, not that it is all that private, LOL....

Have to say that I was most disappointed that realistically I do NOT have a currency 1853 but rather two of the proof milled edge.

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4 hours ago, VickySilver said:

It was on their new listing for the month. Unfortunately I am so limited that I can send email of pictures but have real problems getting images down to low enough resolution from laptop. I will PM you my email, not that it is all that private, LOL....

Have to say that I was most disappointed that realistically I do NOT have a currency 1853 but rather two of the proof milled edge.

That was a lovely coin. It also said that it had the portrait from the 1866-1879 threepenc, so the second portrait. That would mean that it was from a later striking. Does that make sense?

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36 minutes ago, Iannich48 said:

That was a lovely coin. It also said that it had the portrait from the 1866-1879 threepenc, so the second portrait.

Is there a picture anywhere of it that someone can post?  Not on Colin Cooke website now, of course, but was it and did anyone get a grab? Or was it in their catalogue??

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I can see now that the Colin Cooke example of the 1853 4d with the third young head is the same coin as sold in the Noble auction in July.  I could not bid in that sale due to glitching in Noble’s bid platform. 
 

Drat! - that means I have missed it twice in a row.
 

Next time I shall prevail …  

29D5415B-5435-42FF-803B-CBD704F6EF22.jpeg

E914DF3E-F8BF-4161-BFDD-AA83DFE60FD9.jpeg

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That is a nice coin and worlds better than the two at Noonan's as all three are proofs, though of different subtype as you've pointed out. Question is, what price will the two Noonan's 1853s reach on sale, and how about the other "tiddlers" (3ds).

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