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1949threepence

contract law - offer for sale

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Scenario A:-

A dealer is offering a coin on his website for £1950. The coin has been sitting there for several years at the same price 

At the same time, he then offers the same coin on e bay for £3,500. Presumably on the grounds that it has rapidly increased in value during the intervening period.

Meanwhile a buyer goes on his website and (ostensibly) and certainly in good faith, buys the coin using the website's automatic payment facility.

The dealer then gets back to the buyer to say, sorry, but due to oversight, he never increased the price on the website. Therefore sale is off unless buyer pays the extra £1550.

Does the dealer's action breach contract law?

Scenario B:-

Same as above, except there is no automatic buying process on the website, so the potential buyer calls the seller to offer the £1950, and is then told verbally, that the price has now gone up.

Does this action breach contract law?

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Thanks in advance for any thoughts. I have looked at contract law, but although there are a number of cases going back over a century, there aren't many which fit the comparatively very recent internet age, which is essentially only about just over 20 years old in meaningful terms, and none which precisely fit these scenarios (that I can find anyway).   

Asking in anticipation of a possible problem.

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No idea about contract legalities, but very poor form and I sympathise with your annoyance,. My thoughts, in no particular order.

How do you forget you have an item on your website when you list it on ebay and not remember to check what you were asking?
I have always found that dealers are quite happy to offer items for less off ebay as it reduces their costs, so I'd at least anticipate a reduction from the £3500!
The longer a dealer has an item on their site unsold the more I would expect them to discount it! Unsold = no profit and funds tied up. And if it hasn't sold at the web price, they're just chancing it with hiking it that much on ebay!

And this particular case, I'm guessing;

A: Like in a shop that has forgotten to re-price an item, they aren't obliged to sell to you. But until it sells at the higher price its value is not established. If I'd already paid, I'd just ask for my money back. In six months time, if it hasn't sold and you still want it, make an offer. Unless you really want it and think the price is still reasonable. I'd still haggle as they've avoided eBay costs and fees. 20% down from the ebay price might be a starting point?

B: No contract has been entered into and the price is open to negotiation. I suspect that's always the case, just that many retailers will honour an incorrect lower price if it isn't hugely out to preserve customer goodwill. Though as the economy gets worse, just like John Lewis and their 'never knowingly undersold' promise, I imagine many will review this if they haven't already.

 

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What do his T&C’s say? Depending on the company’s terms and conditions, you’ll have legal rights (and a contract) either:

- once you’ve paid for the item (consideration)

- once they’ve sent it to you

If you don’t have a contract and someone realises they’ve told you the wrong price, they can cancel your order.

If you had paid via the website at the requested price and their  T&Cs stated that ownership is transferred upon payment then I think you might have had a good case.

 

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A similar problem was discussed back in 2011, in a thread titled " 1827 penny".

Towards the end of the second page, a member called ' Mat ' explains contract law, in some depth. May be helpful.

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22 minutes ago, Zo Arms said:

A similar problem was discussed back in 2011, in a thread titled " 1827 penny".

Towards the end of the second page, a member called ' Mat ' explains contract law, in some depth. May be helpful.

Thanks Bob, found it. Very useful.

I sort of vaguely remembered it from the time, but had long forgotten what the advice was. 

I'll have to be prepared for disappointment if I decide to go for the coin via his website and he turns it down. The last time I bought from him the auto payment facility wouldn't work, so had to e mail him. Hence the two scenarios above.   

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I am a bit late to the discussion. I think these paragraphs from this solicitors' website explains it concisely. 

https://www.howatavraamsolicitors.co.uk/selling-goods-online-when-do-you-become-legally-bound-to-deliver/#:~:text=By%20placing%20an%20item%20in,confirms%20receipt%20of%20the%20consideration.

"Displaying items for sale on a website does not constitute an ‘offer’ under UK law.  Instead, it is an invitation for third parties to make an offer to buy.  By placing an item in a shopping basket online, a consumer is making an offer to buy those items at the price and on the terms listed on the website.  However, a binding contract will only be formed online when the supplier accepts an order and confirms receipt of the consideration."

"To avoid customers insisting that goods are sold at the price listed on a website, many businesses delay their acceptance of the customer’s ‘offer’ by first issuing an order acknowledgement.  This enables the supplier to decline a customer’s offer if it transpires that there are errors on the website or that the item is no longer available.  If a confirmation or acceptance is automatically issued on receipt of an order, a binding contract has been formed and the supplier will be in breach of contract if they fail to deliver on the terms originally listed.  In order to avoid allegations from consumers that they have been misled, the supplier’s standard terms of business should set out the contractual process and make clear at what point the legally binding contract will be formed."

Hence there is definitely no contract in scenario B in my view. The displayed price is only in "invitation to treat". You are making an offer and the seller has the right to reject the offer.

In scenario A, I think it is invariably the case these days that you get an "order acknowledgement" when you have given your card details to buy something. Then you get a confirmation of the order at a later time (usually within 24 hours). The T&C would very likely also confirm that there is no contract until the order is confirmed. 

Personally, I don't feel comfortable with buying something that has obviously priced wrongly. E.g. something worth £3000 priced at £30.00. However, I do agree that not "updating" your price on your website is extremely poor on the seller's part.

(Incidentally, I once saw a real leather briefcase at Debenhams with an original price of something like £150. Then it was reduced to "£5" after Christmas. I said to a sales assistant that surely the price cannot be correct but she said it was. I went ahead and brought it even though I didn't need the case.)

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13 hours ago, Sword said:

 

13 hours ago, Sword said:

(Incidentally, I once saw a real leather briefcase at Debenhams with an original price of something like £150. Then it was reduced to "£5" after Christmas. I said to a sales assistant that surely the price cannot be correct but she said it was. I went ahead and brought it even though I didn't need the case.)

Legally speaking, was it an open and shut case?

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4 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

 

Legally speaking, was it an open and shut case?

I believe sir, that you are being de-briefed.

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Conversations like this take me back 50+ years to phrases like "invitation to treat" "offer and acceptance" "fundamental terms and mere warranties"

The goods on ebay only invite an invitation to treat (make an offer). Who remembers The Boots Cash Chemists case or 

Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Co

If your money is not accepted there is no contract. On the other hand Sale of Goods Act is also in force so ask someone a lot younger.

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12 hours ago, 1887jubilee said:

Conversations like this take me back 50+ years to phrases like "invitation to treat" "offer and acceptance" "fundamental terms and mere warranties"

The goods on ebay only invite an invitation to treat (make an offer). Who remembers The Boots Cash Chemists case or 

Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Co

If your money is not accepted there is no contract. On the other hand Sale of Goods Act is also in force so ask someone a lot younger.

From 1893, yes I saw it. But thanks anyway.

The point is that if you pay via the remote auto facility, and - as commonly happens - an auto e mail receipt is issued to you immediately, then surely that forms a completed contract. The fact that the seller is absent in person, is irrelevant.

An issue might arise if at the same time as a buyer completes such a transaction on the website, and at roughly the same time, another individual buys the same item over e bay. Both in good faith. Who takes legal priority? The first buyer? No doubt in reality the seller would just say, "sorry, already sold but forgot to delete from the website. I'll refund the money to your bank account". That's actually an instant get out.  

Incidentally, I've looked at the sellers T & C's and the above contract of sale criteria just isn't covered.  

Edited by 1949threepence

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I think the only way to tell at this stage will be to make the purchase and see what happens. You're prepared for the worst anyway. I suspect if you don't get it for the 'original' price it might be time consuming and eventually fruitless to go the legal route, but a reputable dealer would surely be prepared to be flexible given the circumstances?

 

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28 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

I think the only way to tell at this stage will be to make the purchase and see what happens. You're prepared for the worst anyway. I suspect if you don't get it for the 'original' price it might be time consuming and eventually fruitless to go the legal route, but a reputable dealer would surely be prepared to be flexible given the circumstances?

 

Oh absolutely, this is essentially academic. In reality I wouldn't have the time or resources to take legal action.

I'll just go for it and see what happens.

It could be that he'll just take the pragmatic approach that he's got a sale anyway, and will let it go at the lower price. 

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