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Lotad

1819 crown A before DECUS edge lettering

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I’ve had this 1819 LIX crown for a little while now and after a bit of oogling today I noticed there appears to be an A just before DECUS in the edge lettering. 
 

I checked several other 1818/19/20 in lower grades, and a couple higher, but couldn’t see anything on them. 

Is this of any interest as an error or variety?

C8E5DC9B-FE3F-497C-A09F-DF78B47205FC.jpeg

9A218827-6BE0-43D7-82AC-286B46FA08EC.jpeg

D55917E3-3636-48CB-8292-082D20D8C525.jpeg

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That looks quite interesting. I will check my crowns later, to see if I have something similar.

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incuse? 

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5 hours ago, Diaconis said:

incuse? 

Yes, slightly. You can feel it dips if you run your fingernail over it. 

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Definitely looks incuse…I’d wager someone has hammered the edge of one coin against the other at some point, or some similar mechanical crushing of coins at the mint.

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23 hours ago, Coinery said:

Definitely looks incuse…I’d wager someone has hammered the edge of one coin against the other at some point, or some similar mechanical crushing of coins at the mint.

That would be surprising - I thought they took great care with those crowns even wrapping them in special paper before sending them out?

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It might be of interest as we know that at least two incuse edge collars for crowns of this period were made. They weren't used on many patterns, but L&S lists 4 with an incuse edge that could apply (151, 186, 187 & 194), together with a 5th (184) that had an incuse edge but not of full height (clearly not applicable).

The collars wouldn't have been thrown away, so maybe the wrong collar was used, replaced and the coin restruck. The coin is a bit dire for research, but are there any hints of understriking anywhere else?

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Thanks for the info. What are those L&S numbers?

Here’s the rest of the edge inscription. 

F767C9E4-2C8F-4DC3-B82A-A1C2AA5E13EF.jpeg

89683424-2F30-407D-8610-C95CF4772EA1.jpeg

E6DC9996-18A4-47F4-ABCB-CFA1FCA81C53.jpeg

5A11A259-7319-4FE5-90E5-A7C41CA3760A.jpeg

43E1A7AB-18B9-4102-B3FE-4637F6D05635.jpeg

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It rather looks as though your incuse A almost exactly corresponds to the (raised) A of ANNO, in size , style, and position on the edge.

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6 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

It rather looks as though your incuse A almost exactly corresponds to the (raised) A of ANNO, in size , style, and position on the edge.

Also, that the thicker side-bar of the ‘A’ corresponds (namely right on the raised and left on the incuse), makes for a far more likely clash of edges post production. 

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I still have a bit of a problem with a clash of edges as I consider it implausible you could get that depth of impression from 28g of silver falling onto another edge, perfectly aligned so as to produce the incuse A as if it were part of the edge.

It isn't the same situation as a brockage, where you have a coin in situ to make the incuse detail on one side, all made using one of Boulton's presses utilising much more force than that obtained by gravity. If there was another coin only partially ejected, then I expect the collar to malfunction as the first coin would have to be in the same plane as this coin, and that would surely jam the mechanism. It doesn't add up to my way of thinking. 

The collars used for this issue are 3 part (or at least my type example - 1819 no stops is so), with their ends joining in the middle of the gaps after DECUS, TUTAMEN and REGNI. That would be consistent with the clear joint line after TUTAMEN, but the other two are not obvious. Where the join should be after REGNI, is that a trace of a full height cross pattee, and in the gap after DECUS a smaller cross - or am I just seeing things? Crosses were used on some edges during William III and Anne on halfcrowns, but my crowns of these two reigns didn't use them (only used on halfcrowns?). I don't have a late Geo. II crown to say what was used on the issues prior to the new coinage. Help someone?

The earlier silver used the Castaign edging process, which in the case of a couple of my coins left a very sharp vertical cutoff in one place (with a step in height on the edge), as seen after TUTAMEN above and coincidentally also after TVTAMEN on some of the earlier coins in my trays. Was this consistently the starting or terminal legend on the strip and I'm wondering if could this be a one part collar? I can't see any trace of a vertical line in the appropriate place, but this could be due to wear. Check?

I don't think we have the answer yet, so more research required.

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Hmmm...as far as I can see from the pictures, the A's have a thick righthand slope, whereas the misplaced on in the original query has a thick lefthand one, so either a blank edge was hit very hard by a coin with edge lettering, causing the reversal, or it was made by a different collar.

On all the different edge types, is the righthand downstroke of an A always the thick one?

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On 9/3/2022 at 5:47 PM, Rob said:

I consider it implausible you could get that depth of impression from 28g of silver falling onto another edge, perfectly aligned so as to produce the incuse A as if it were part of the edge.

Just to clarify, I wasn’t proposing it was the force of one coin falling against the other. :)

I do know we did some strange things with coins as kids, with just a couple of things springing to mind, such as opening modelling paint tins, making cross-pistol mechanisms from old penny pieces and, maybe relevant to this situation, we used to squeeze chunky washers edge-to-edge in a vice until they’d finally fly off like a game of buckaroo!

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You must have been wealthy then if you had washers at 5 bob a piece.

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Silver does work harden, so a finished coin could stamp a blank quite well once.....

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On 9/4/2022 at 11:04 PM, Rob said:

You must have been wealthy then if you had washers at 5 bob a piece.

No, they were actually washers :)

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