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copper123

proposed heating payments this winter

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Anyone else out there not to sure about the goverments help for bill payers this winter?

If it happens (and I am sure it will) what will it happen in year 2 3 4 and 5 will this not add tens of billions to the national debt, all to be given to putin for his nasty little war.

The point is any goverment that stops doing this "subsidy" or paying peoples bills for them will be immediately voted out of office .

The goverment even compounds this by giving the Ukraine weapons and money to carry on with the war

I cannot see anything else but tax rises in the future unless truss has found that magic money tree and I don't belive she has

 

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Let's just hope that this is a spur to quickening up the research into energy efficient alternatives - solar panels on roofs are slowly spreading but making them more efficient would be good, and they've only just begun to work out how to make wave energy work. Meantime, I hear Bill Gates is putting investment money into a modern, cleaner, more fuel efficient form of nuclear reactor whose advantage is that it can use the waste fuel from older reactors (whose design is appallingly out of date - 1950s in some cases). If Putin's warmongering hastens sustainable and efficient alternatives to energy, then that's one in the eye for him.

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Yes but many of these products are needed now and it will be hard to justify billing customers for future tech when they cannot afford their bills now let alone in six months time

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For instance it often takes 15-20 years to get a nuclear power station up and running and they are always well over budget as well

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Posted (edited)

I remember in the mid seventies the newspapers were all full of stories about how electricity bills would be practically free in later years , sucking up to the baby boomers as usual - .If we had known the truth we might have behaved better - ah well.

Edited by copper123

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I've said before and I'll say again, we've tried to run before we can walk when it comes to net zero. Moroever, setting ludicrously tight target deadlines such as 2030 reflects a dogma with no meaningful thought or logic behind it. 

As a consequence we've neglected existing sources of energy and somehow set up reducing our existing <1% Co2 emissions as a sort of global example, when anybody with an ounce of intellect can see that the big players like China don't give a tuppenny damn about climate change. Again - we can't move forward one jot as a planet until they take an interest and it's mind numbingly stupid to suggest or imply otherwise, talking of which I don't see ER demonstrating outside the Chinese embassy.   

We could have been self sufficient, but have been well and truly caught with our pants down. 

As for increasing bills, again it's blindingly obvious that probably more than half of households won't be able to afford the projected figures and will need a lot more help than £400 over 6 months. How we get round that via anything but a totally blunt approach which takes in the rich as well as the poor, I honestly don't know. We could offer credits in £100 blocks upwards to households who can provide evidence of hardship, but that would present an administrative nightmare, probably presided over by badly trained civil servants. Or maybe we could just say nobody gets cut off over the Winter months and we look at affordability for individuals next year, with a view to many bills being written off. Again an administrative nightmare and open to abuse.      

One thing that could be done is to maybe restrict to pre April 2022 rates, anybody who is on Universal Credit. State pensioners are already in line for £500 in November. 

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On 8/11/2022 at 1:27 PM, copper123 said:

Yes but many of these products are needed now and it will be hard to justify billing customers for future tech when they cannot afford their bills now let alone in six months time

It's virtually a Catch 22 - we need alternative energy now more than ever (urgently), yet the way energy supplies are structured there are so many people who can't afford to pay for it. It will take imagination on the part of government (which sadly so few of them have) to find radical new ways to supply and pay for our energy needs.

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On 8/11/2022 at 9:47 PM, 1949threepence said:

As a consequence we've neglected existing sources of energy and somehow set up reducing our existing <1% Co2 emissions as a sort of global example, when anybody with an ounce of intellect can see that the big players like China don't give a tuppenny damn about climate change. Again - we can't move forward one jot as a planet until they take an interest and it's mind numbingly stupid to suggest or imply otherwise, talking of which I don't see ER demonstrating outside the Chinese embassy.   

You're right, and yet we have to set an example even if the big players ignore us. And though we don't get to hear about it, I'm prepared to bet there are fires running out of control even there in China.

We could have been self sufficient, but have been well and truly caught with our pants down. 

As for increasing bills, again it's blindingly obvious that probably more than half of households won't be able to afford the projected figures and will need a lot more help than £400 over 6 months. How we get round that via anything but a totally blunt approach which takes in the rich as well as the poor, I honestly don't know. We could offer credits in £100 blocks upwards to households who can provide evidence of hardship, but that would present an administrative nightmare, probably presided over by badly trained civil servants. Or maybe we could just say nobody gets cut off over the Winter months and we look at affordability for individuals next year, with a view to many bills being written off. Again an administrative nightmare and open to abuse.      

It couldn't be a worse time for high inflation and a cost of living crisis. Otherwise people could just about swallow that energy accounts for a growing % of their income.

One thing that could be done is to maybe restrict to pre April 2022 rates, anybody who is on Universal Credit.

Yes.

 

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

You're right, and yet we have to set an example even if the big players ignore us.

Not at the expense of poor people left with no gas or electric in the middle of Winter we don't - forget it. 

I'm afraid those eco loons are in for a very bad time indeed if they start getting in everybody's way this Winter. 

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

It's virtually a Catch 22 - we need alternative energy now more than ever (urgently), yet the way energy supplies are structured there are so many people who can't afford to pay for it. It will take imagination on the part of government (which sadly so few of them have) to find radical new ways to supply and pay for our energy needs.

It will also take time. These major shifts can't be achieved overnight, and objectives have to be set aside for practical reasons, such as the problems we are experiencing right now. They show up in stark relief just how far away we are from achieving net zero.

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23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Not at the expense of poor people left with no gas or electric in the middle of Winter we don't - forget it. 

I'm afraid those eco loons are in for a very bad time indeed if they start getting in everybody's way this Winter. 

Yes, people on low incomes do need help. But so does the planet and we have no time to waste. Those 'eco loons' can see what's coming.

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33 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, people on low incomes do need help. But so does the planet and we have no time to waste. Those 'eco loons' can see what's coming.

Probably someone's boot if they try and stop an ambulance again.

 

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22 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Probably someone's boot if they try and stop an ambulance again.

 

That sounds like a Daily Mail story. Do you have a source for such an event?

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8 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

That sounds like a Daily Mail story. Do you have a source for such an event?

Take your pick from this search

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9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Take your pick from this search

Thanks. It seems absolutely clear from that that the protest group are not Extinction Rebellion, but a group I hadn't heard of called Insulate Britain (though I'm 100% in favour of what they want to achieve). Holding up ambulances would be most unfortunate, though I'm wondering how ambulances deal with ordinary tailbacks? They must have protocols to deal with it, as there many jams and eventual temporary closures on the M25 caused by breakdowns, accidents, or even a heavy commute.

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20 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Thanks. It seems absolutely clear from that that the protest group are not Extinction Rebellion, but a group I hadn't heard of called Insulate Britain (though I'm 100% in favour of what they want to achieve). Holding up ambulances would be most unfortunate, though I'm wondering how ambulances deal with ordinary tailbacks? They must have protocols to deal with it, as there many jams and eventual temporary closures on the M25 caused by breakdowns, accidents, or even a heavy commute.

As a driver myself, I know that motorists will normally pull in to the side of the road in order to let an ambulance pass. But these twats wouldn't let anyone go by and when tackled about holding up ambulances, said they didn't care. This did happen as I saw the guy say it on a news bulletin at the time. They may have denied it later, but it was 100% definitely said.

They may not be XR but they're still eco loons as far as I'm concerned. Nothing wrong with protesting, but when they start deliberately getting in the way of others going about their everyday business, holding up the emergency services, glueing themselves to the road, climbing on top of trains, is when they alienate the public. As far as I'm concerned, if they're so keen to be there, handcuff them to nearby street furniture and leave them overnight. They're a bloody nuisance, and they might hopefully learn a lesson.  

When XR demonstrate in front of the Chinese embassy then I might lend them some credence. But it's the same tired old rhetoric: "evil tories", "Boris can go to hell" etc etc ad infinitum. Like devoid of ideas Labour would be one minute jot different. 

Notwithstanding the fact that we've reduced our Co2 emissions by over 50% since 1990, they still complain about the UK. Meanwhile China continues to build new coal fired power stations and these hypocritical leftie morons never say a word about it. Why not, are they so brain dead that they imagine Chinese Co2 emissions get wrapped in neat little parcels and stored somewhere safe?

They're not genuine. Merely another left wing platform to have a pop at the government. Still seething from the Tories wiping the floor with the left in 2019. But too cowardly to debate honestly and openly. All they do is hurl insults. Often personal and very nasty.     

Sorry if that offends Chris, as I know your politics - but they offend me and millions of others, BIG TIME, and I'm sick to the back teeth of being told I can't say this and I can't say that, in case it "offends". Although it seems that "offence" is a one way street these days. 

All offence is equal, but some offence is more equal than others, to take a twist on George Orwell. 

 

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They won't dare to stand in front of me when I'm driving my new Kia Starmer......

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

As a driver myself, I know that motorists will normally pull in to the side of the road in order to let an ambulance pass.

Not possible in gridlock on the M25.

But these twats wouldn't let anyone go by and when tackled about holding up ambulances, said they didn't care. This did happen as I saw the guy say it on a news bulletin at the time. They may have denied it later, but it was 100% definitely said.

If they say they don't care about holding up ambulances, then yes they will definitely lose public support.

They may not be XR but they're still eco loons as far as I'm concerned. Nothing wrong with protesting, but when they start deliberately getting in the way of others going about their everyday business, holding up the emergency services, glueing themselves to the road, climbing on top of trains, is when they alienate the public. As far as I'm concerned, if they're so keen to be there, handcuff them to nearby street furniture and leave them overnight. They're a bloody nuisance, and they might hopefully learn a lesson.  

Apart from holding up emergency services, all else is valid. (See below...)

Notwithstanding the fact that we've reduced our Co2 emissions by over 50% since 1990, they still complain about the UK. Meanwhile China continues to build new coal fired power stations and these hypocritical leftie morons never say a word about it. Why not, are they so brain dead that they imagine Chinese Co2 emissions get wrapped in neat little parcels and stored somewhere safe?

I hear about it. Why don't you?

They're not genuine. Merely another left wing platform to have a pop at the government. Still seething from the Tories wiping the floor with the left in 2019. But too cowardly to debate honestly and openly. All they do is hurl insults. Often personal and very nasty.     

Sorry if that offends Chris, as I know your politics - but they offend me and millions of others, BIG TIME, and I'm sick to the back teeth of being told I can't say this and I can't say that, in case it "offends". Although it seems that "offence" is a one way street these days. 

Sorry, but I don't take seriously insults that make accusations using - or implying - the "woke" word. It's the modern equivalent of "political correctnesss gone mad". Often right wingers whose main source of "news" is The Daily Mail (the UK equivalent of Fox News).

All offence is equal, but some offence is more equal than others, to take a twist on George Orwell. 

It's a sobering thought, but many Brits are more offended by a few protestors gluing themselves to trains, than they are about thousands losing their homes (and many their lives) in floods in Bangladesh and Indonesia, and ditto many hundreds from fires in Australia and California and now all over Europe too. To be honest I don't give a damn about the supposed "millions" (your evidence?) who are offended by those who are trying to wake everybody up about what is happening to the planet. We just don't have the time to let ourselves be distracted by such irrelevant political concerns. What we've experienced the last week is not a freak event - we'd better start getting used to it.

 

Edited by Peckris 2

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9 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

As a driver myself, I know that motorists will normally pull in to the side of the road in order to let an ambulance pass.

1/ Not possible in gridlock on the M25.

But these twats wouldn't let anyone go by and when tackled about holding up ambulances, said they didn't care. This did happen as I saw the guy say it on a news bulletin at the time. They may have denied it later, but it was 100% definitely said.

2/ If they say they don't care about holding up ambulances, then yes they will definitely lose public support.

They may not be XR but they're still eco loons as far as I'm concerned. Nothing wrong with protesting, but when they start deliberately getting in the way of others going about their everyday business, holding up the emergency services, glueing themselves to the road, climbing on top of trains, is when they alienate the public. As far as I'm concerned, if they're so keen to be there, handcuff them to nearby street furniture and leave them overnight. They're a bloody nuisance, and they might hopefully learn a lesson.  

3/ Apart from holding up emergency services, all else is valid. (See below...)

Notwithstanding the fact that we've reduced our Co2 emissions by over 50% since 1990, they still complain about the UK. Meanwhile China continues to build new coal fired power stations and these hypocritical leftie morons never say a word about it. Why not, are they so brain dead that they imagine Chinese Co2 emissions get wrapped in neat little parcels and stored somewhere safe?

4/ I hear about it. Why don't you?

They're not genuine. Merely another left wing platform to have a pop at the government. Still seething from the Tories wiping the floor with the left in 2019. But too cowardly to debate honestly and openly. All they do is hurl insults. Often personal and very nasty.     

Sorry if that offends Chris, as I know your politics - but they offend me and millions of others, BIG TIME, and I'm sick to the back teeth of being told I can't say this and I can't say that, in case it "offends". Although it seems that "offence" is a one way street these days. 

5/ Sorry, but I don't take seriously insults that make accusations using - or implying - the "woke" word. It's the modern equivalent of "political correctnesss gone mad". Often right wingers whose main source of "news" is The Daily Mail (the UK equivalent of Fox News).

All offence is equal, but some offence is more equal than others, to take a twist on George Orwell. 

6/ It's a sobering thought, but many Brits are more offended by a few protestors gluing themselves to trains, than they are about thousands losing their homes (and many their lives) in floods in Bangladesh and Indonesia, and ditto many hundreds from fires in Australia and California and now all over Europe too. To be honest I don't give a damn about the supposed "millions" (your evidence?) who are offended by those who are trying to wake everybody up about what is happening to the planet. We just don't have the time to let ourselves be distracted by such irrelevant political concerns. What we've experienced the last week is not a freak event - we'd better start getting used to it.

1/ A quickly made up thought to excuse the loons

2/ agreed

3/ No it's not. Getting in the way of others is asking for trouble. Demonstrate, but do it in such a way that you don't deliberately make a nuisance of youreself. Always have the humility to realise that not everybody thinks the same as you.

4/ So produce a link supporting that assertion.

5/ Sorry, but I don't take seriously any statement that gets its knickers in a twist about the "Daily Mail"

6/ I'm afraid you have to accept that not everybody agrees with the climate change assumptions based on Co2 emissions. The climate has been changing for millenia and has been several degrees warmer than this. Moreover, your point excusing protestors glueing themselves to wherever, is a deflection. 

Personally, I think they should just be left there, glued to whatever, and re-organise the traffic round them. Unless attached to valuable paintings in museums, in which case just rip them off by force. They wouldn't do it again if they knew that would happen.     

 

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13 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

What we've experienced the last week is not a freak event - we'd better start getting used to it.

Never was a truer word spoken because, as sure as hell, the biggest culprits are going to do nothing about it. And, with our 1% emissions, we're just p*ssing in the wind.

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29 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Never was a truer word spoken because, as sure as hell, the biggest culprits are going to do nothing about it. And, with our 1% emissions, we're just p*ssing in the wind.

"Never was a truer word spoken"!!? If so there must be a pattern that indicates this is not a freak event. Have our previous Summers been getting this hotter and drier? Is there a long-term gradient/trend which has not been matched before? And was 1976 a freak event? - yes it was, but if that happened today the end of the world would be nigh! You can see the desperation in Peckris in trying to ascribe everything to climate change. It's like a religious cult.

If the next few summers are as hot and dry, or hotter and dryer that would indicate a pattern, but it may just be a cyclic weather phenomeon anyway. It might, just might be down to man-made CO2 emissions, but we have very little was of confirming that. But a pattern will have to happen before anyone can pronounce on this.

Secondly, p*ssing in the wind is the correct analogy. China is increasing its coal use by 300 million tons this year to just over 3 billion tons. In 2021 India consumed over a billion tons of coal, the USA 0.5 billion. Our coal use last year was 8.6 million tons by way of comparison. Work out the percentage that is of the others!

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2 hours ago, oldcopper said:

"Never was a truer word spoken"!!? If so there must be a pattern that indicates this is not a freak event. Have our previous Summers been getting this hotter and drier? Is there a long-term gradient/trend which has not been matched before? And was 1976 a freak event? - yes it was, but if that happened today the end of the world would be nigh! You can see the desperation in Peckris in trying to ascribe everything to climate change. It's like a religious cult.

If the next few summers are as hot and dry, or hotter and dryer that would indicate a pattern, but it may just be a cyclic weather phenomeon anyway. It might, just might be down to man-made CO2 emissions, but we have very little was of confirming that. But a pattern will have to happen before anyone can pronounce on this.

Secondly, p*ssing in the wind is the correct analogy. China is increasing its coal use by 300 million tons this year to just over 3 billion tons. In 2021 India consumed over a billion tons of coal, the USA 0.5 billion. Our coal use last year was 8.6 million tons by way of comparison. Work out the percentage that is of the others!

Sorry, "very little way", not "very little was".

Another worry is that high oil and gas prices might actually mean higher CO2 production, not lower, as poorer countries switch to cheaper coal, a less efficient and more polluting energy source that emits far more CO2 for the heat it produces.

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3 hours ago, oldcopper said:

"Never was a truer word spoken"!!? If so there must be a pattern that indicates this is not a freak event. Have our previous Summers been getting this hotter and drier? Is there a long-term gradient/trend which has not been matched before? And was 1976 a freak event? - yes it was, but if that happened today the end of the world would be nigh! You can see the desperation in Peckris in trying to ascribe everything to climate change. It's like a religious cult.

If the next few summers are as hot and dry, or hotter and dryer that would indicate a pattern, but it may just be a cyclic weather phenomeon anyway. It might, just might be down to man-made CO2 emissions, but we have very little was of confirming that. But a pattern will have to happen before anyone can pronounce on this.

Secondly, p*ssing in the wind is the correct analogy. China is increasing its coal use by 300 million tons this year to just over 3 billion tons. In 2021 India consumed over a billion tons of coal, the USA 0.5 billion. Our coal use last year was 8.6 million tons by way of comparison. Work out the percentage that is of the others!

Plus, I think we can all see that with this kind of rhetoric:-

Quote

At the same time, the Chinese people will never allow any foreign forces to bully, oppress, or enslave us. Anyone who dares try to do that will have their heads bashed bloody against a Great Wall of steel forged by over 1.4 billion Chinese people.”

they're not going to be in any mood to listen to the UK or anyone else talking to them about reducing Co2 emissions. Even so, if the XR mobs truly are serious and dedicated to reducing Co2, and not just a bunch of unthinking, incoherent idiots (which is what they sound like), they would still demonstrate outside the Chinese and Indian embassies. 

The fact they won't, leads one to the conclusion that they're really just frauds who like to cause trouble, and in particular heap opprobrium on the UK - so tediously predictable.   

SOURCE

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"never was a truer word spoken" referred to the "we'd better get used to it" rather than "What we've experienced the last week is not a freak event".

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The climate has varied enormously over the millennia.

It's not that we have affected the climate that offends me.

It's the arrogance that asserts that _all_ climate  change is all down to Man's activities that offends me,

because this clearly is not true.

 

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