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1949threepence

The Verene collection of British proofs

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At Noble Auctions Australia.

Just watching this live (started 7:30pm their time, 10:30am UK time).

The highlight of the sale has to be the 1839 five pounds Una and the Lion, which went for $780K (aus) which at an exchange rate of $1.74: £1.00 is about £448,275. Wow, is all I can say.

Some big prices being attracted.  

 

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Yes, that's a prominent piece if any are. Does anyone know what the approximate (or exact) mintage was?

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And what about the Gothic Crowns? A$84000+ commission = £58,000 phew.

I was happy to get three lots including one piece, I believe unique, from the collection.

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32 minutes ago, 1887jubilee said:

And what about the Gothic Crowns? A$84000+ commission = £58,000 phew.

I was happy to get three lots including one piece, I believe unique, from the collection.

Very well done.

I would have liked to have bid for the 1831 William IV proof penny en medaille (ie: the reverse is not inverted, the rarer of the two types), but my registration approval e mail only came through just after this coin had gone - typical !!! My fault. Shouldn't have left it till the last minute. 

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52 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, that's a prominent piece if any are. Does anyone know what the approximate (or exact) mintage was?

Just looked in my coin yearbook. The mintage isn't given, unfortunately.

Don't know if available elsewhere. Probably not. It can't be many though. I'd bet <500. Maybe even fewer than that. As it's gold, most are no doubt still extant.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, that's a prominent piece if any are. Does anyone know what the approximate (or exact) mintage was?

 

29 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

 Just looked in my coin yearbook. The mintage isn't given, unfortunately.

Don't know if available elsewhere. Probably not. It can't be many though. I'd bet <500. Maybe even fewer than that. As it's gold, most are no doubt still extant.  

Of course they were originally part of the 1839 proof set, and according to the information relating to The Tyrant Collection just 300 were minted. However, they continued to be produced to order for many years after. So what the final total was, is anyone's guess. 

 

Quote

1839 Victoria Young Head set in gold, silver and copper. One of the most famous proof sets of England, with a mintage of 300.

 

Edited by 1949threepence
quoted the wrong post
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Mintage has been reported in various sources at about 400 pcs.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Mintage has been reported in various sources at about 400 pcs.

I expect those are "educated guesses" - take the proof set issue (known) then add on whatever you think for the individual issues. Unless the Royal Mint has any specific total production records, which I doubt, that's all it will be. 

Edited by oldcopper

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True is that. Many RM "records" either were rarely kept or not preserved.

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PS - I am wondering if some coins in this sale did not reach reserve?? 

I too registered to bid but that did not occur until AFTER the auction....Oh well I did not want to compete at many of those price levels anyway.

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On 7/27/2022 at 12:40 PM, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, that's a prominent piece if any are. Does anyone know what the approximate (or exact) mintage was?

Bit more potentially useful information here, Chris:-

Quote

1839 PROOF SET CASE, Victoria, 1837-1901. S-PS3 Young head, "Una and the Lion" Pattern Five Sovereigns and Sovereign to Farthing (15 coins). The coins are struck in a mix of die alignments, as noted. With contemporary rare shagreen covered maroon leather covered timber presentation case. Spade shaped case fitted with brass swivel hooks and brass push-button at front. Round corners with blue velvet roundels in a 3-3-6-3 pattern with blue ribbon lifters and white silk lining to the lid. Mintage is estimated at 300 sets struck, with the first sets finally released to collectors in 1843. Given the dominance of individual low denomination silver and bronzed copper proof coins seen in the market, their number struck must have been more significant than the number of complete sets.^Collectors could order 1839 proof sets plus individual coins privately from William Wyon (the engraver) until he died in 1851. Later strikings are known (see the 1839 overdate halfpenny and mule 6d in this catalogue), likely for very well connected individuals.^Obverse - Known as the young head with the bust of Victoria facing left without drapery. Her hair bound by a double fillet and gathered in a chignon with an extra curl in front which crosses the left ear. W. W. initials on the truncation with the legend VICTORIA DEI GRATIA and the date below. This Wyon design was used with minor modifications for the sovereign, half-sovereign, crown, half-crown, penny, halfpenny and farthing. ^The shilling, sixpence and groat have a similar effigy, but the legend is extended to VICTORIA DEI GRATIA BRITANNIAR : REG : F : D : ^The Maundy legend is VICTORIA D: G: BRITANNIAR: REGINA F: D:^Good very fine and rare.

source

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20 hours ago, VickySilver said:

PS - I am wondering if some coins in this sale did not reach reserve?? 

I too registered to bid but that did not occur until AFTER the auction....Oh well I did not want to compete at many of those price levels anyway.

A few didn't reach estimate, but maybe not quite the same thing in this instance. Not sure.

Some of the prices reached were astounding.  

 

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Another interrsting little snippet is that the 1853 proof set had a mintage of just 40. So any proofs from that set are going to be super rare.

Quote

 

1853 Victoria Young Head set in gold, silver and copper

The mintage was a mere 40. The reason for issuing this set has never been revealed. One of the rarest of all English proof sets, this one is complete, containing 16 pieces: gold sovereign and half sovereign, silver crown and its fractions including Maundies and Britannia groat, and the copper penny, half penny, farthing and half farthing. Beautifully toned, the two gold coins are matching in color, the silver all possess golden bluish gray iridescence, and the coppers (not bronzed) show both original mint-red color and amber-green iridescence.

 

Source

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The Verene sale  enables some  observations on the current state of the market for UK predecimal proofs:

Gold and large silver proof 19thC coins (particularly 5 sovereigns and crowns) are extremely well bid. Most of these in the collection were bought by dealers

Bronzed and copper proof coins are not chased by dealers, particularly anything smaller than a penny

ultra rare coins like patterns, mules and die orientation varieties are mainly hunted by collectors and the prices are reasonable

slabbing is not required if the coin has great eye appeal and knowledgeable purchasers actually appreciate their opportunity to self grade and maybe get a bargain

Ephemera such as the original cases for the early sets are not chased by dealers and were comparative bargains in this sale given their much rarer than the coins

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Yes, these are probably fair assessments. I am always surprised at the relative lack of interest in patterns and non-gold proofs (excluding somewhat pennies) of the 19th and 20th centuries. I suppose this cuts both ways for those of us that collect such - what we have does not attract interest of others and what we are seeking when found is not too dear.

Not ever been too interested in cases really, but more power to those that are....

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9 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Yes, these are probably fair assessments. I am always surprised at the relative lack of interest in patterns and non-gold proofs (excluding somewhat pennies) of the 19th and 20th centuries. I suppose this cuts both ways for those of us that collect such - what we have does not attract interest of others and what we are seeking when found is not too dear.

Not ever been too interested in cases really, but more power to those that are....

Yet some of the 19th century base metal proofs do attract fair prices. Some are very rare and highly collectable.

Obviously they're not going to compare with gold proofs, because not only do you have rarity in many cases, but also bullion value. The two together makes them irresistible as investment pieces, especially given the substantial rise in gold prices recently. Ideal hedge against inflation which you physically hold yourself. That places them completely outside the mercy of banks and other financial institutions - many of these are not the solid dependable pillars of society they used to be, with their increasingly incomprehensible modes of operation and weird ID demands.    

I can definitely see the attraction.   

  

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On 7/31/2022 at 3:02 AM, shagreen said:

The Verene sale  enables some  observations on the current state of the market for UK predecimal proofs:

Gold and large silver proof 19thC coins (particularly 5 sovereigns and crowns) are extremely well bid. Most of these in the collection were bought by dealers

Bronzed and copper proof coins are not chased by dealers, particularly anything smaller than a penny

ultra rare coins like patterns, mules and die orientation varieties are mainly hunted by collectors and the prices are reasonable

slabbing is not required if the coin has great eye appeal and knowledgeable purchasers actually appreciate their opportunity to self grade and maybe get a bargain

Ephemera such as the original cases for the early sets are not chased by dealers and were comparative bargains in this sale given their much rarer than the coins

I think there are mitigating factors re the copper and bronzed proofs. This is a facet of buying from Noble, for example their silver always photographs well and shows colour, lovely blueishness in many of them,, gold is gold of course, one assumes good brilliance in proofs and the colour is normally not too variable. But the copper photography is in my view understated.  Not the definition of course - that's top rate, but the general appearance. As it's Australia, no-one (except Australian buyers near to Sydney) will likely see them in the flesh and thus have anything more to go on than a single photograph taken in incidental light, so the only way to ascertain any colourful toning or brilliance is through the auctioneer's description which will always be subjective to an extent.

So are you going to end up with a matt brown dull bronzed proof or a colourful or brilliant example? It's a bit of a lottery unless you know the coin from a previous sale.

Interesting how the two coppers to most buck the trend were both copper proof farthings, 1826 and 1853 (erroneously labelled as W.W raised), $1900 and $2600.

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7 hours ago, oldcopper said:

I think there are mitigating factors re the copper and bronzed proofs. This is a facet of buying from Noble, for example their silver always photographs well and shows colour, lovely blueishness in many of them,, gold is gold of course, one assumes good brilliance in proofs and the colour is normally not too variable. But the copper photography is in my view understated.  Not the definition of course - that's top rate, but the general appearance. As it's Australia, no-one (except Australian buyers near to Sydney) will likely see them in the flesh and thus have anything more to go on than a single photograph taken in incidental light, so the only way to ascertain any colourful toning or brilliance is through the auctioneer's description which will always be subjective to an extent.

So are you going to end up with a matt brown dull bronzed proof or a colourful or brilliant example? It's a bit of a lottery unless you know the coin from a previous sale.

Interesting how the two coppers to most buck the trend were both copper proof farthings, 1826 and 1853 (erroneously labelled as W.W raised), $1900 and $2600.

I see what you mean about the copper proofs. The pic of the higher hammer price 1853 penny, for example, doesn't bring out the shimmering iridesence, and superb, red, green/blue toning in the legends, more typical of this date. If you didn't know, and someone told you it was a currency strike, you'd probably believe them. Of course you get the full effects when rotating the coin through the angles. 

The pic I took of mine doesn't bring out the best, but I think it's a little better than Noble's pic.

Noble's pic

 

noble 1853.PNG

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pic of my 1853 proof penny

 

bayford 1853.PNG

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Their's looks a lot more red, many have actual pleasant tone from being in the cases I assume. I got one of these a few years ago when they were going for a song and looks similar to yours.

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1 hour ago, VickySilver said:

Their's looks a lot more red, many have actual pleasant tone from being in the cases I assume. I got one of these a few years ago when they were going for a song and looks similar to yours.

My photo is an accurate reflection of the overall true colour. Just doesn't bring the best of it out, as already stated. 

You were lucky to get yours for a song. But then coin prices are going up and up.  

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

My photo is an accurate reflection of the overall true colour. Just doesn't bring the best of it out, as already stated. 

You were lucky to get yours for a song. But then coin prices are going up and up.  

i like this one! The 65RB - takes some time to load the full image.

https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/victoria-1838-1901/1853-1d-s-3948-rb/3946?sn=202429&amp;h=pop

Edited by oldcopper

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

i like this one! The 65RB - takes some time to load the full image.

https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/victoria-1838-1901/1853-1d-s-3948-rb/3946?sn=202429&amp;h=pop

Beauty - yours?

Totally free of marks, apart from a tiny blemish on the Queen's neck.  

The smaller one is also a gem.  

 

 

Edited by 1949threepence
correction of fact.

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10 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Beauty - yours?

Totally free of marks though, apart from a tiny blemish on the Queen's neck.  

The smaller one is also a gem.  

 

 

Yes, couldn't resist showing it! - bought Stacks Bowers 2013 for ~£1800. Bought it with the following 1841 colon:

https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/lot-archive/results/272162/

That only cost about £200, but I sold it to a dealer friend for not much more than that - I had a better example already (the LCA 2009  Roland Harris one) and bought it as it was cheap. He stuck it into DNW and got £850 hammer for it! 

Both these coins came from the "Demarete" collection, According to Stacks Bowers he bought much of his stuff in London from the mid-50's onwards. Coincidentally Peck's P.1480 was sold in SNC mid-60's and described as having a mark on the face, which this one does as well. So I wonder if both this coin and the stunner 1853 were both ex-Peck, as in the same SNC list was Peck's 1853 copper proof penny (FDC as all his coins were graded in SNC - "all coins FDC unless stated otherwise").

The photo of the proof in Stacks Bower's archive is the same sort of appearance as the Verene specimen, which just shows how flattering the PCGS photography is! 

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12 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

Yes, couldn't resist showing it! - bought Stacks Bowers 2013 for ~£1800. Bought it with the following 1841 colon:

https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/lot-archive/results/272162/

That only cost about £200, but I sold it to a dealer friend for not much more than that - I had a better example already (the LCA 2009  Roland Harris one) and bought it as it was cheap. He stuck it into DNW and got £850 hammer for it! 

Both these coins came from the "Demarete" collection, According to Stacks Bowers he bought much of his stuff in London from the mid-50's onwards. Coincidentally Peck's P.1480 was sold in SNC mid-60's and described as having a mark on the face, which this one does as well. So I wonder if both this coin and the stunner 1853 were both ex-Peck, as in the same SNC list was Peck's 1853 copper proof penny (FDC as all his coins were graded in SNC - "all coins FDC unless stated otherwise").

The photo of the proof in Stacks Bower's archive is the same sort of appearance as the Verene specimen, which just shows how flattering the PCGS photography is! 

 

Some very interesting info.

With regard to the 1841, I bet you wouldn't see much change from £1500 now.

 

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