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1949threepence

DNW changing names.....?

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Well, "matte" is generally attached as descriptor to a proof coin. However I can think of a couple of instances where it IS attached to specimen - although it is used in that instance somewhat interchangeably with "satin".

These would be the 1920 satin specimen/proof (and sometimes then also termed "matte") shilling, florin and half crown - there are presumably but unseen 3d and 6d and have usually been also described as presenting with ducktail milling.

1922/1924 satin specimen/proof coins (sometimes called "matte") 1/4d through half crown with only the penny dated 1922 & the rest 1924

1942-1945 threepence through half crown silver - called (satin) specimen but not usually "matte"

1965 Churchill satin specimen crown (this is usually NOT referred to as "matte")

 

As far as difference between specimen and proof, well, there seems to be changes in definition over time and differences between cataloguers and individuals but has always been my understanding much as Peck outlined; to the best of my knowledge there are no die studies linking the proof to specimen crowns of 1935. No known matte proofs of the crown, specimen or proof (the 1935 Jubilee medal DOES come in "matte" however). The 1902 set of coins have been termed "matte" and usually then described as proof, but at one time as "specimen".

Edited by VickySilver
clarify
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I admit I am somewhat naive in this topic. My understanding is that a proof is sharply struck (done with multiple strikes using special dies) on specially prepared flans. The flans were handled carefully to ensure that there are no contact marks.

The question is whether there is a requirement for the flans to be highly polished for the item to count as proof. I think the answer started off as being "yes" to "normally yes" after the 1902 matt coins appeared. This would be consistent with the 1902 matt being initially described as "specimen".

With regard to the 1935 Jubilee medal: 

a) was it struck with multiple times using special dies? In my mind, a definite yes. The obverse details are amazing. With such a large medal, the force of strike would probably be too great if only a single strike was used

b) was it prepared on specially made flans? Undoubtedly. But the flans were matte rather than mirrored. 

If one were to accept the 1902 as proof (and I assume this was done by 1935), then I think it would also make sense to call the 1935 medals also as matte proof also (unless the matte finish is somehow not judged to be as high standard as the 1902). If a 1935 crown was made in the same way as the medal, would we consider that a matte proof?

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13 hours ago, Sword said:

I did meant the matt specimen. But what exactly is the difference between a matt "specimen" and matt "proof"?

Are you meaning specifically matt specimens and matt proofs, or the difference generally between specimen and proof? If the former, I'm not entirely sure. If the latter, I believe that proofs are produced from specially made highly polished dies, such that the fields of coins so produced are very reflective when rotated through the angles - although maybe not, as the name would imply, with "matt" proofs. Proofs are generally minted for re-sale to the public.

Specimens, conversely and as far as I can tell, seem to be minted for commercial purposes - maybe testing the die. Or perhaps to be used as superior examples, or presentation to various relatively high ranking individuals. At which point there might be some crossover with the so called "VIP proofs".

You might find the following description from the sale of the Copthorne collection F74, 1874H "specimen, of some use:-

Quote

"Specimen Issue. BMC 1698. F 74. Dies 7+H. Small rim nick at 3 o'clock. Virtually As Struck with some lustre. Ex D. Wallis Collection, DNW Auction 83, 30 September 2009, lot 3372 [from J. Welsh January 2000]. Periodically, the Heaton mint struck carefully finished specimen coins of varying denominations as an example of what the company could produce; in some instances they were presented as gifts to dignitaries and government officials and in other cases were part of the travelling portfolio of a Heaton sales representative (cf. Gunstone, SNC December 1977, p.545; cf. Tansley Collection, DNW 67, lot 369)"  

Specimens also seem to crossover with "early strikes" - hence "specimen or early strike", the seller has no way of knowing which, or if either. I suspect there's a lot of past detail that we will never be privy to.  

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I was thinking specifically the difference between a matt "specimen" and a matt "proof". In my mind, a specimen coin is generally not quite the standard of a proof coin but accept the line between them can be somewhat blur. As far as I can tell the 1935 matt specimen medal looks to be to be struck to a very high standard and I would not say it is an inferior in quality to the 1902 matt proof.

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Glad that someone else has an interest in these. What you have doubtlessly seen cited in many sources is that mint workers were displeased by the dull appearance of the 1902 mattes just after striking and so sought to improve appearances by a swipe on the mint apron (I really have no idea of the veracity of this, but does somewhat explain the appearance of many hairlines 1902 mattes of all denominations). This seems to imply that the matte surface was due to planchet and/or die prep PRIOR to striking.

Quite a few of the matte proofs struck AFTER 1902 have evidence of "sandblasting" post minting.Somewhere I have I believe it is the 1951 2/6 matte with residual blasting medium adherent to the devices and lettering on the reverse especially. 

The 1924 silver satin/matte specimens seem to be unique, and Steve Hill agrees, in that a plating was applied to the planchets PRIOR to striking (evidently some of the surface delaminating prior to and then subsequent to also minting & thus appearing a bit rude with commiserate low grades). Thus they really should probably not be considered matte, and making them quite different than the satin specimen 1965 Churchill Crowns, whose appearance IMHO is likely due to pre strike planchet preparation and likely die prep also.

I tend to agree by most peoples' definitions that the 1935 Jubilee medals in large and small format would be considered matte proofs. I have not seen any crowns of that year of similar appearance - I am sure if found that they would go for a fancy sum.

 

I have probably forgotten most of what I used to know about the mattes. Not that it matters but I do not believe the TPGs really care or understand any of this and have grades that are a bit willy-nilly. This would not matter except the prices fetched are very much driven by the grade on label which drives me up a tree. They are completely unamenable to any discussions and the graders remain anonymous.

Edited by VickySilver
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On 5/18/2022 at 4:56 PM, secret santa said:

I sent them a number of points mentioning that I did not have the patience to do an exhaustive system test for them and never received an acknowledgement or reply despite requesting a response.

I never did the courtesy of a reply (or thanks) but I see that a number of my points have now been fixed.

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37 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I never did the courtesy of a reply (or thanks) but I see that a number of my points have now been fixed.

Still no search facility though (unless incredibly well concealed).

Although interestingly some tips on using the apparently non existent search facility.

 

 

 

search tips.PNG

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Still no search facility though (unless incredibly well concealed).

Some searches work - what exactly are you finding that doesn't work ?

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37 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Some searches work - what exactly are you finding that doesn't work ?

I can't find a search tab to begin with. Usually they're at the top of the page with a magnifying glass next to them, and a little slot for text to be added. 

Am I missing something very obvious? 

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Am I missing something very obvious? 

When you get down to a particular auction, either past or present, there seems to be a search facility on each auction page (I think although I can't guarantee every page has one).

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On 6/5/2022 at 11:13 AM, secret santa said:

I never did the courtesy of a reply (or thanks) but I see that a number of my points have now been fixed.

Did you get an acknowledgement like this? 

I e mailed them over the weekend about the search facility issue. If I don't get a reply by next Monday, I'll re send the same e mail with the above one copied in, asking when they intend to reply. 

To cap it all they obviously got the Queen's platinum jubilee confused with Christmas !!!

 

noonans e mail.PNG

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Had a reply from Ian Anderson at Noonans, to which I replied. No further response. Beginning to get slightly irritated with the issue now. I find it extremely difficult to believe that the "Head of online services" doesn't know what I'm referring to by "search facility", as it's so basic to most websites. He knows now, or is not competent for his post if he still doesn't. So I'll leave it where it stands.

"Hi Ian,

No, I mean the tab usually at the top of every page which says "search", typically has a magnifying glass symbol next to it, and a space for freetext to be inserted.

So if I was looking for say, 1853 pennies, I could find all the ones you've sold by inserting "1853 pennies" into that search box. 

This was definitely available on your old site, but is missing on this one.  

Bit like this (from another website). (appears below post)

The blank pictures in the special collections, eventually load if you leave the page about 15 minutes. Gradually the blanks are filled in one by one. On your old site they were all there as soon as you went onto the page. Not my PC, same on tablet. 

Sincerely,

Michael 

 

On 09 June 2022 at 09:00 Ian Anderson <ian@noonans.co.uk> wrote:

Dear Mr 
 
Thank you for your message.
 
I’m not sure what you mean by ’search facility’ - do you mean our archive of past lots sold?
 
Regarding your point about images missing for special collections - please could you let me know some examples where you have seen this and I will investigate further.
 
Many thanks,
Ian Anderson

Noonans

IAN ANDERSON

HEAD OF ONLINE SERVICES

NOONANS

16 BOLTON STREET MAYFAIR LONDON W1J 8BQ

T. +44 (0)20 7016 1700

WWW.NOONANS.CO.UK

 

  

Hi,

I note that since your website re-vamp, the search facility has vanished. Or if it is there, it's incredibly well hidden, such that I'm unable to find it.

Although interestingly, under "Help and information" "General", you have search tips, which might lead one to believe you do still have a search facility (see screenshot above).

The other point I've noticed is that many of the pictures in your special collections are blacked out. 

Are you able to advise and/or rectify?

By the way, your website was great the way it was - just a thought for what it's worth. 

Thanks

search screenshot.PNG

Edited by 1949threepence

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I wonder whether the management at Noonan's is aware of our feedback ?

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On 6/5/2022 at 4:38 PM, secret santa said:

When you get down to a particular auction, either past or present, there seems to be a search facility on each auction page (I think although I can't guarantee every page has one).

Now found - thanks Richard. For some reason, it's never appeared before ! Does the job I wanted.

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I wonder whether the management at Noonan's is aware of our feedback ?

I wonder.......probably not, but you never know.

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Just been looking through the preview catalogue for 28th to 29th September - 27 pages not broken down into type (such as British Coins from various properties, as they used to be), so had to wade through the entire list of 1065.

I find one coin I'm interested in and save to my cabinet. Then when I went to look, I clicked on my cabinet, only to be taken to what looked like another link marked "my cabinet", except it wasn't clickable, So can't even take another look.

Utterly shambolic.      

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Just been looking through the preview catalogue for 28th to 29th September - 27 pages not broken down into type (such as British Coins from various properties, as they used to be), so had to wade through the entire list of 1065.

I find one coin I'm interested in and save to my cabinet. Then when I went to look, I clicked on my cabinet, only to be taken to what looked like another link marked "my cabinet", except it wasn't clickable, So can't even take another look.

Utterly shambolic.      

You must have been unlucky, the search for British milled just worked for me, then the item to cabinet worked fine as well. Curious website now I agree, has a mind of it's own I think sometimes.

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7 hours ago, Iannich48 said:

 

You must have been unlucky, the search for British milled just worked for me, then the item to cabinet worked fine as well. Curious website now I agree, has a mind of it's own I think sometimes.

I dunno, maybe it's me. Just seems weird I'm encountering all these obstacles.

Just looking again for my saved item. When I go into my account I see "Your cabinet", when I click on that it doesn't actually take me to my cabinet (why not?), but to another page which says, "This is your entry point to visit areas of our website dedicated to you.....". There is also what looks like another link to "your cabinet", but it's not clickable. Tried on two devices with the same result.

I don't get what I'm doing wrong. If it's going to be this difficult, I'm not sure it's worth the ongoing frustration and waste of time.

 

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4 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I dunno, maybe it's me. Just seems weird I'm encountering all these obstacles.

Just looking again for my saved item. When I go into my account I see "Your cabinet", when I click on that it doesn't actually take me to my cabinet (why not?), but to another page which says, "This is your entry point to visit areas of our website dedicated to you.....". There is also what looks like another link to "your cabinet", but it's not clickable. Tried on two devices with the same result.

I don't get what I'm doing wrong. If it's going to be this difficult, I'm not sure it's worth the ongoing frustration and waste of time.

 

Ah finally found it. On that page marked above, amongst a number of other clickables was this.

I shouldn't be so thick as to imagine it would just be a simple matter of initially clicking on "your cabinet". 

 

 

one saved lot 1.PNG

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I was able to search on "penny" successfully. And I eventually found the coin that I'd saved to my cabinet as you describe above, saved within the particular auction. Not at all intuitive but it's there if stick at it. Still very slow, though, on my PC.

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On 6/9/2022 at 5:09 PM, 1949threepence said:

By the way, your website was great the way it was - just a thought for what it's worth. 

Exactly this.

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