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VickySilver

Spink Auction Now - Wow! George V Silver Going High

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I was astonished to see prices for George V proof silver going "Big Boy". All are prices as knocked down and not the final gross:

THe 1931 Proof Crown went for 12k USD

The 1934 Proof Crown went for 20.5k USD

The 1934 Proof Halfcrown went for 10k USD

The 1934 Proof shilling and 3d went for 3k USD

These were all very nice coins, but frankly surprised me just a bit as they went for multiples of what I had seen similar coins go for. One other thing to keep in mind though is that many proof Wreath crowns, or at least those slabbed as proof by TPGs are IMO not really proofs. These two both would get my stamp of approval as legitimate proofs however. I managed to squeak by on the 1934 6d which I had been missing (I most certainly try NOT to buy coins at such venues, but where do you find another?).

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I took the 3d. Quite a bit more than I paid for a 1935 PF66 3d a year or so ago. But then I paid less than I expected over the weekend for a high grade Hogarth & Erichsen 3d token - so it averaged out at what I was expecting. NGC did not seem to have any other PF 3d for 1934 so perhaps they are a little scarcer. 
 

In any case, it was all less than the ¥4m for 1838 gold 3d that sold today at Auction World in Tokyo. 

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Wow!

Well, good on you for the 3d. The 1934 date may be a bit scarcer; I secured one off Spink back when the SNC was a viable entity....Ex-Norweb.

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Cheers. I had to Google Norweb - it is good to see such a prestigious collector had an eye for these coins. 
 

My sense also has been that the proof George V 3d (which are the only ones I follow) were going relatively cheaply in auction records relative to the quality and scarcity.  So perhaps higher prices were to be expected. Then again, while these do have very high rarity ratings, that needs to be attenuated by the fact that they are available for half a dozen years and so not cumulatively as rare as the R number might suggest.  Either way, it will be interesting to see if the prices revert or stay aloft. 

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Prices were as usual very high for many things - the 1730 silver farthing went for $7,500 hammer which is ~£7,000 including premium etc. They are rarer than the George I equivalents but that was still a lot! 

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Luckily nothing in there for me and given current prices, nothing affordable for stock. I went for a walk, had a thoroughly pleasant day and don't feel I missed out on anything.

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Hmmm.......it's interesting isn't it. 

Not referring to this auction specifically, but I've noticed a trend whereby the prices of some dealers are either the same as or even less than the hammer prices at some auctions.

I don't think it's my imagination. Maybe some of the coins have sat so long with the dealer they still have 2016 prices on them, and not been re-adjusted.   

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Virtually every dealer is asking where these people paying high prices are. It appears that just as you have people who only buy on ebay or facebook, so there are people who have decided to buy at auction to the exclusion of other outlets. You often see something that you make a mental note is worth £x and it opens above this level. Add in the premium and mark it up as you have to, and you have something that nobody will touch. Selling at fairs, everyone expects you to come down a bit from the ticket price, but these are almost mostly lower than you would have paid at auction in the first place. It's a parallel universe. 

 

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16 hours ago, Rob said:

Virtually every dealer is asking where these people paying high prices are. It appears that just as you have people who only buy on ebay or facebook, so there are people who have decided to buy at auction to the exclusion of other outlets. You often see something that you make a mental note is worth £x and it opens above this level. Add in the premium and mark it up as you have to, and you have something that nobody will touch. Selling at fairs, everyone expects you to come down a bit from the ticket price, but these are almost mostly lower than you would have paid at auction in the first place. It's a parallel universe. 

 

Was thinking that exact same thing Rob

Screenshot 2022-01-18 at 06.44.11.png

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There may be people who will only buy from one place or another - but I don’t think that captures fully what is going on. 
 

Personally I will buy from anywhere (auction, dealer, private, eBay) and I will pay what I can afford over what I think is the market price - on the basis that I value it more than the market and / or (wishfully thinking) the market will perhaps catch up with me one day …
 

I suspect what is also going on is that there is more information available (albeit imperfect, including a putative grade) and more accessible means of buying globally. The result is that discerning buyers are creating price differentials between what they want (illogical as it may seem to others) and what they don’t.  Or at least what they know about and what they don’t. 

Edited by Menger
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Plus, of course, the fact that the pandemic has seen people's bank accounts swell through lack of holidays, restaurants etc and, as the baby boomers move through their twilight years, they realise that they can't take it with them. So they may as well spend it on something that takes their fancy.

Edited by secret santa
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Maybe the people that pay massive amounts for coins online have been too busy attending parties at number ten this past year or so - just a thought.......

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4 hours ago, secret santa said:

Plus, of course, the fact that the pandemic has seen people's bank accounts swell through lack of holidays, restaurants etc and, as the baby boomers move through their twilight years, they realise that they can't take it with them. So they may as well spend it on something that takes their fancy.

Or cashing out crypto gains

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2 hours ago, azda said:

Or cashing out crypto gains

I think it's the younger generation that are doing that - our granddaughter's student boyfriend speculates on bitcoin whereas none of my pensioner golfing friends would touch it with a bargepole !

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10 hours ago, Menger said:

There may be people who will only buy from one place or another - but I don’t think that captures fully what is going on. 
 

Personally I will buy from anywhere (auction, dealer, private, eBay) and I will pay what I can afford over what I think is the market price - on the basis that I value it more than the market and / or (wishfully thinking) the market will perhaps catch up with me one day …
 

I suspect what is also going on is that there is more information available (albeit imperfect, including a putative grade) and more accessible means of buying globally. The result is that discerning buyers are creating price differentials between what they want (illogical as it may seem to others) and what they don’t.  Or at least what they know about and what they don’t. 

Yes.

There's a coin I will be watching intently at the upcoming February DNW auction, and comparing its hammer + juice price with a coin in a virtually identical state on offer by a dealer.

Purely academic exercise.     

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7 hours ago, secret santa said:

I think it's the younger generation that are doing that - our granddaughter's student boyfriend speculates on bitcoin whereas none of my pensioner golfing friends would touch it with a bargepole !

Same here in Hong Kong, my younger colleague is talking about it and speculate in every week, while to me, just like a unrealistic black hole which may become zero when wake up one day.  Maybe I am too old already😅.

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My guess is that crypto will touch zero before my said PF66+ 1934 3d from the Spink sale.  But the crypto may be worth a bit more first. 

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4 hours ago, Menger said:

My guess is that crypto will touch zero before my said PF66+ 1934 3d from the Spink sale.  But the crypto may be worth a bit more first. 

Bitcoin is currently $41.,500 

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14 hours ago, secret santa said:

I think it's the younger generation that are doing that - our granddaughter's student boyfriend speculates on bitcoin whereas none of my pensioner golfing friends would touch it with a bargepole !

Elon Musk owns around a billion worth. Also hedge funds have bought, although, it’s probably not for some older people. I also know people who have became millionaires holding their coins, people take their gains and use it for hard assets like houses and gold and various type Lamborghinis.

Edited by azda

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As I see it, the fundamental, initial assumption behind investment in Bitcoin was that it will become “money”.   People have then speculated on its continued price rises. 
 

By “money”, I mean  “a generally accepted means of exchange”.  I think to become a “generally accepted means of exchange”, people would also need to value it also as a “store of value” (otherwise, a chunk of people will not accept it in exchange - so it won’t become “money”). 

I don’t believe it will ever be a “store of value” as unlike other money it has no value aside a means of exchange (as gold can be put in teeth; even fiat money can be used to settle tax liabilities) - except evidently as a means of speculation. 
 

This absence of value aside its use as means of exchange (except for speculation) means (unlike gold and fiat) it can (in theory) have zero value.  As a purely speculative instrument (not “money” and not “store of value”), I expect it will test that zero value one day. 

Edited by Menger
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To add to my rant (and clarify) - without a value aside speculative value, there is nothing for the market to peg a value to. My sense is this will prevent crypto attainting price stability - critical for a store of value and so for money.  And so the original investment assumption was flawed. 

In other words, It is a tulip not gold.
 

You are welcome, Elon. 

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43 minutes ago, Menger said:

As I see it, the fundamental, initial assumption behind investment in Bitcoin was that it will become “money”.   People have then speculated on its continued price rises. 
 

By “money”, I mean  “a generally accepted means of exchange”.  I think to become a “generally accepted means of exchange”, people would also need to value it also as a “store of value” (otherwise, a chunk of people will not accept it in exchange - so it won’t become “money”). 

I don’t believe it will ever be a “store of value” as unlike other money it has no value aside a means of exchange (as gold can be put in teeth; even fiat money can be used to settle tax liabilities) - except evidently as a means of speculation. 
 

This absence of value aside its use as means of exchange (except for speculation) means (unlike gold and fiat) it can (in theory) have zero value.  As a purely speculative instrument (not “money” and not “store of value”), I expect it will test that zero value one day. 

Fiat also being deflationary means you are also getting less gold teeth. 

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3 minutes ago, Menger said:

To add to my rant (and clarify) - without a value aside speculative value, there is nothing for the market to peg a value to. My sense is this will prevent crypto attainting price stability - critical for a store of value and so for money.  And so the original investment assumption was flawed. 

In other words, It is a tulip not gold.
 

You are welcome, Elon. 

And also El Salvador, I guess all those multiple Muti millionaire bedroom geeks are smiling at least, people who have freed themselves financially from the status quo, and we"re not talking professional traders, just normal everyday people who have taken the time to buy and sell, I guess you are right, it's not a store of value for them, but they are ok with that with their 7 figure bank accounts now while fiat buying power becomes less and less

Edited by azda

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On 1/18/2022 at 4:24 PM, secret santa said:

I think it's the younger generation that are doing that - our granddaughter's student boyfriend speculates on bitcoin whereas none of my pensioner golfing friends would touch it with a bargepole !

I don't blame them. Yes, there is big money to be made through crypto, but even after reading the book, I get the feeling it's a very risky business. Possibly invest small sums to see how it goes? 

Trouble is, for those who have capital savings, the usual safe haven of a building society ISA is increasingly a loss maker with pathetic interest rates and rising inflation. Thus ongoing real terms depreciation of cash holdings. 

Best to invest in something else - maybe gold via the Royal Mint. Has a great track record over a long period. 

Property if you have the money, but you'd be buying in an overheated market, and buy to let seems somewhat deleterious to the interests of landlords these days. That programme "Nightmare tenants, slum landlords" is enough to fill any potential landlord with horror. 

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12 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Property if you have the money, but you'd be buying in an overheated market, and buy to let seems somewhat deleterious to the interests of landlords these days. That programme "Nightmare tenants, slum landlords" is enough to fill any potential landlord with horror. 

poverty porn for the masses to look at and be horified

Typical "Daily Mail" readers and sorry yes that includes me a couple of days a week.....

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