DNW auction today - The Ian Sawden collection

[1949threepence 3,366]

What a magnificent collection and sale. 208 lots and all but about 2 or 3 sold. 

I managed to get lots 26 & 91. 

Many of the lots went to room bidder "No 900"

Anybody else tune in and get something, or just watch?

 

[1949threepence 3,366]

I Tell a lie - 8 lots went unsold.

[secret santa 2,013]

I watched in awe at the prices realised - I was worried a while ago that the market was dropping - not any more !!!

[Rob 3,000]

Some of those prices were simply bonkers. I had a shortlist of 5 pieces. The gilt 2d (lot 11) cost someone nearly 8500 all in!! The KH11 I was willing to go 2000-2500, but 5K hammer? A couple of the gilt Moore pieces used to be mine (lots 157 & 160), but I sold them in 2009 because I couldn't live with them. Today they sold for 1200 & 1900 hammer, and I know which one is the nicer of the two. The Godless patterns all went for 6-13K! I think I'm losing the plot.

[1949threepence 3,366]

Just looked at my invoice. The total "juice" amounts to 33.8% exactly. I believe there is import duty on this sale, but I didn't think it was as much as 6.8 sodding per cent !

Oh well, never mind. At least I've got the coins.

Yes the prices were insane.   

[secret santa 2,013]

3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Just looked at my invoice. The total "juice" amounts to 33.8% exactly. I believe there is import duty on this sale, but I didn't think it was as much as 6.8 sodding per cent !

Actually Mike, it's only 5%. Commission is Buyer's premium (24% of hammer + VAT) + Import  (5% of hammer)

i.e  £1000 hammer attracts £288 premium plus £50 import - £1338.00 total

Nevertheless, an additional 5% is less than welcome !

Edited October 12, 2021 by secret santa
correction

[1949threepence 3,366]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Actually Mike, it's only 5%. Commission is Buyer's premium (24% of hammer + VAT) + Import  (5% of hammer)

i.e  £1000 hammer attracts £288 premium plus £50 import - £1338.00 total

Nevertheless, an additional 5% is less than welcome !

Yes you're right Richard. Got my invoice and it shows that what has been added is VAT on general lots at 4.8%, plus import duty at 5% as you say. Just checked back on some old DNW invoices and all they show is buyer's premium at 24% - no VAT. There was still a column for VAT on bullion lots, but that was it.

So the net effect of all that lot (no pun intended) is an additional 33.8% over and above hammer !!!

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by 1949threepence

[secret santa 2,013]

I've no idea why Import Duty is payable - maybe Ian Sawden lived abroad ?

[1949threepence 3,366]

43 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I've no idea why Import Duty is payable - maybe Ian Sawden lived abroad ?

Yes, possibly Canada.

His biography says he moved abroad in 1976 and that his youthful interest in coins was rekindled as recently as 2006 when he spied a 1797 cartwheel twopence in a Toronto dealer's shop, bought it, and the rest, as they say, is history.

link to biography 

 

[secret santa 2,013]

Thanks Mike, I should have noticed that as I'd asked DNW to send me the catalogue for the auction. It's a good thing to have on the shelf, sitting nicely alongside the Colin Adams catalogue.

[jaggy 528]

Just two coins that interested me but not enough to enter the bidding and especially given that DNW has a very high buyers premium at 24%.

Edited October 13, 2021 by jaggy

[1949threepence 3,366]

5 hours ago, jaggy said:

Just two coins that interested me but not enough to enter the bidding and especially given that DNW has a very high buyers premium at 24%.

...and the rest yesterday...

OK, so here's a question that somebody brighter than me should be able to answer with ease. How come DNW charge VAT on top of their buyer's premium, when (eg) LCA don't?

Also, why didn't DNW charge VAT on said buyer's premium up until relatively recently? For example hammer price on coins bought in 2016 for me, was £680.00 Total cost £843.20, which is an increase of exactly 24%.                                                                                                                                  

Or is there something blindingly obvious I'm missing?   

[Sword 1,330]

VAT is always payable on buyer's premium. Some auction houses like LCA simply combine the VAT with their buyer's premium to give an overall charge. Buyer's premium inc. VAT so to speak. 

Other auction houses like DNW don't combine VAT with their premium. I suppose their premium is already high and combining VAT would make it an even higher figure which is not good for marketing.

 

[1949threepence 3,366]

12 minutes ago, Sword said:

VAT is always payable on buyer's premium. Some auction houses like LCA simply combine the VAT with their buyer's premium to give an overall charge. Buyer's premium inc. VAT so to speak. 

Other auction houses like DNW don't combine VAT with their premium. I suppose their premium is already high and combining VAT would make it an even higher figure which is not good for marketing.

 

Well that did cross my mind, but it does strike me that there's some smoke and mirrors somewhere with DNW as the effective net increase in buyer's premium (inclusive of VAT) since the purchase I made in 2016, is from 24% to  28.8%. The figures don't lie.

Which is your point to be fair. 

So what they did was to hide a 4.8% increase in buyer's premium by extracting the VAT and showing it separately. Sneaky.

Edited October 13, 2021 by 1949threepence

[secret santa 2,013]

Yes, coming back to your original point, a total uplift of 33.8% on the Ian Sawden sale is outrageous compared with the 5% that I used to pay at Croydon Coin Auction when I started out going to auctions.

[jaggy 528]

I suppose you have to decided how badly you want a coin, how much you are willing to pay for it and factor the charges into that number. I have always been an auction buyer but, in this last year, I have made more Ebay and private purchases than ever before. The auction house charges are a big part of that. Still, given their ability to attract quality material and the hammer prices being paid, the auction houses seem to be getting the commercial equation about right.

[1949threepence 3,366]

4 hours ago, jaggy said:

I suppose you have to decided how badly you want a coin, how much you are willing to pay for it and factor the charges into that number. I have always been an auction buyer but, in this last year, I have made more Ebay and private purchases than ever before. The auction house charges are a big part of that. Still, given their ability to attract quality material and the hammer prices being paid, the auction houses seem to be getting the commercial equation about right.

At the end of the day that's precisely it. If you want a coin badly enough you'll pay the extra.  

[oldcopper 276]

Fantastic stuff and curious why Ian Sawden limited his Soho collection to pre-1800, so no 1805 patterns or proofs etc of the 1806/7 issue. Was it personal preference? Excepting the 1780 Droz halfpennies and proofs of similar template  to currency pieces, there were few distinctive patterns either, especially pennies - just one helmeted Britannia and one large head 1797 cartwheel penny (and that a restrike) for instance. 

The 1831 .W.W. went for nearly £1500 all in! One of the nicer ones of course, but still relatively marked compared to the better examples of the main varieties. Mine has an interesting raised die flaw above the last reverse colon, have seen it occasionally elsewhere. Here's LC's only photographed example of another one (not mine):

 

[1949threepence 3,366]

52 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

Fantastic stuff and curious why Ian Sawden limited his Soho collection to pre-1800, so no 1805 patterns or proofs etc of the 1806/7 issue. Was it personal preference? Excepting the 1780 Droz halfpennies and proofs of similar template  to currency pieces, there were few distinctive patterns either, especially pennies - just one helmeted Britannia and one large head 1797 cartwheel penny (and that a restrike) for instance. 

The 1831 .W.W. went for nearly £1500 all in! One of the nicer ones of course, but still relatively marked compared to the better examples of the main varieties. Mine has an interesting raised die flaw above the last reverse colon, have seen it occasionally elsewhere. Here's LC's only photographed example of another one (not mine):

 

Good point. His pre 1800 early Soho rivalled that of Colin Adams, especially with the gold pieces. But as you say there was nothing in the penny department from 1805 to 1807.

Yep, interesting die flaw on the last colon of your .W.W 1831. There are similar ones in the Victorian copper period, notably 1855 and 1859.    

[Rob 3,000]

26 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Good point. His pre 1800 early Soho rivalled that of Colin Adams, especially with the gold pieces.

 

Not sure about that. He only had 14 1797 pieces whereas Colin had 44 lots.

With the gold penny you are at the mercy of when one appears.

[oldcopper 276]

24 minutes ago, Rob said:

Not sure about that. He only had 14 1797 pieces whereas Colin had 44 lots.

With the gold penny you are at the mercy of when one appears.

And Colin had all the patterns as well, very comprehensive. It may be that as Ian Sawden only collected the majority of this stuff in a 3 or 4 year window in general about 10 years ago, so he just got hold of as nice stuff as possible that (a) was available at the time, and (b) that he wasn't outbid on. So quite an achievement in that brief timespan.

I'm surprised he got so much of his stuff from London Coins if he lived abroad, because they don't have online bidding, so he would have had to get someone to bid for him each time, unless he was temporarily living in the UK at the time. Still he certainly scored with those florin patterns, many bought from LC!

One thing he did miss out on (unless he bought and sold it) was the lot immediately following the gilt twopence in the DNW 2010 sale. This was the lustrous currency 2d which went for £850 hammer. It then turned up at Heritage Auctions 6 months later slabbed as an MS66 RB (despite a noticeable depression in the field on the obverse) and fetched > $7000!

Now why didn't I bid on that......

[Rob 3,000]

I remember being at the Baldwin's sale when he bought the P1236. He was sat in the middle, front row and I was by the window with Mick Martin behind. When he bid twice what we both thought was reasonable, we looked at each other and thought 'who is this geezer?' We both said at the time, we aren't going there. Rare coin though and the first time either of us had seen one.

[oldcopper 276]

1 minute ago, Rob said:

I remember being at the Baldwin's sale when he bought the P1236. He was sat in the middle, front row and I was by the window with Mick Martin behind. When he bid twice what we both thought was reasonable, we looked at each other and thought 'who is this geezer?' We both said at the time, we aren't going there. Rare coin though and the first time either of us had seen one.

I think it went for £440 on checking my catalogue, and it went for £900 this time. I quite fancied it but dropped out at £800,  beautiful green toning and only one other known according to Martin's survey. Of course I didn't even give it a second glance at that Baldwins sale.

[rpeddie 119]

1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

And Colin had all the patterns as well, very comprehensive. It may be that as Ian Sawden only collected the majority of this stuff in a 3 or 4 year window in general about 10 years ago, so he just got hold of as nice stuff as possible that (a) was available at the time, and (b) that he wasn't outbid on. So quite an achievement in that brief timespan.

I'm surprised he got so much of his stuff from London Coins if he lived abroad, because they don't have online bidding, so he would have had to get someone to bid for him each time, unless he was temporarily living in the UK at the time. Still he certainly scored with those florin patterns, many bought from LC!

One thing he did miss out on (unless he bought and sold it) was the lot immediately following the gilt twopence in the DNW 2010 sale. This was the lustrous currency 2d which went for £850 hammer. It then turned up at Heritage Auctions 6 months later slabbed as an MS66 RB (despite a noticeable depression in the field on the obverse) and fetched > $7000!

Now why didn't I bid on that......

Had to look this one up, Quite a lot of damage to that one i cannot justify it as a MS66 myself, maybe a 64 with the amount of damage on the rev would be a fair grade.
Damage by the branch Britannia is holding and "big" dings by the date, along with a scratch across the fields on Britannia side too.

 

Although saying that believe there is a 3 to 1 weight for the grading of the head side/obverse (lots more long flat areas for necks/cheeks being high points make it easier to grade circulation wear, good examples where rev hides wear due to design intricacies is Morgan dollar and jubilee 1/2 crown) 

so maybe there is some justification using this weighting that it is a MS66 example as the portrait side is pretty much perfect and it must look amazing in hand(need a coins in motion video of this example)

 

[oldcopper 276]

50 minutes ago, rpeddie said:

Had to look this one up, Quite a lot of damage to that one i cannot justify it as a MS66 myself, maybe a 64 with the amount of damage on the rev would be a fair grade.
Damage by the branch Britannia is holding and "big" dings by the date, along with a scratch across the fields on Britannia side too.

 

Although saying that believe there is a 3 to 1 weight for the grading of the head side/obverse (lots more long flat areas for necks/cheeks being high points make it easier to grade circulation wear, good examples where rev hides wear due to design intricacies is Morgan dollar and jubilee 1/2 crown) 

so maybe there is some justification using this weighting that it is a MS66 example as the portrait side is pretty much perfect and it must look amazing in hand(need a coins in motion video of this example)

 

Yes, it's a fantastic example as they go, but as you say far too marked to justify that grade. It was the jackpot for someone!

It would have been nice to get some background info on S. Burchall, whose 200-year-old collection this was. DNW didn't reveal his name when they originally auctioned his coins, so why now? I will ask them the next time I see them.