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VickySilver

DNW Sale - Alan Palmer, Cleaning Guru?

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6 hours ago, jelida said:

My favourite Una.
image.jpeg.e64e9d39bc0dd11c664ee100254bf1c7.jpeg

You Scarss git

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, copper123 said:

"wiped I consider a meaningless or even pointless term , why say it ?

It means have a look at it before bidding as we dont think its right or cleaned but not as bad as the others 😀

They would not say it if the coin looked ok ,so either unnatural or altered surface / finish ?

Edited by PWA 1967
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Ah a bit more like some of the terms that entered numismatics years ago like "Edgy" which might mean light damage ie edge knocks on a coin , that is certainly more used than many .

 

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I see thst there are more "Cleaned at one time, now toning" etc half crowns in the next DNW auction. Such a shame, as they are very decent coins.

 

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1 hour ago, Iannich48 said:

I see thst there are more "Cleaned at one time, now toning" etc half crowns in the next DNW auction. Such a shame, as they are very decent coins.

 

They should invent a term for that in numismatics.

I would surgest "Cleaned at one time by some stupid bastard , now retoning but still mingin'."

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The operative words are "sometime cleaned". 

If a coin has been obviously cleaned, we don't have the remotest clue when it was cleaned. It could have been in 1900, and still re-toning 121 years later. Is there any evidence that a cleaned coin (other than with warm water and a soft damp cloth, perhaps) ever fully recovers?  

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I think if a coin has retoned after dipping, then the original "cleaning" would be very difficult to detect (provided it has not lost its lustre after the dipping).

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Or 'sometime cleaned' may merely be arse-covering time. When in even the tiniest doubt, play it safe.

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Or 'sometime cleaned' may merely be arse-covering time. When in even the tiniest doubt, play it safe.

I thought the same. They've probably had one or two shouts of "cleaned" by winners trying to get some cashback. So now, where there's the slightest doubt, they're employing the term as a caveat. 

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Posted (edited)

Years ago when i first started collecting and didnt know any better i sent some coins to CGS and was the best thing i ever did as made me learn about coins that had been cleaned and retoned.They were rejected as cleaned although they were toned and i did not have a clue or understand what it meant or why and then spent hours with dealers ,graders and cleaning /re toning some low grade ones ,so i could see the results in hand.

The majority of times a coin has been cleaned and then re toned the coin will be an unatural colour as the cleaning has altered the surface.I consider a coin cleaned if the metal has been altered either by Chemicals or damaged caused by abrasion.Coins IMO washed in warm water or bits taken off with a cocktail stick carefully you would not be able to tell as its not damaged the surface.

Although only pictures which often IMO is like grading and much harder to tell...............I have just tried to download them and was unable to 😂 

Maybe someone is able to put the pictures up please for three pennies  UIN 32575 ,32578 and 37644.They may be of know interest to people who know what to look for but might help a new collector or save them a few quid.Bronze go Pink ,brown ,purple or even white and Copper Pink ,purple or black.....Ish colour as depends how much the coin has retoned.The colour can often be blotchy or speckled as the cleaning has changed the metal unevenly.

Its an opinion but better to have one than just assume everything is ok.

I should also mention the copper penny was sent on behalf of a forum member ,hope thats ok 😀

Edited by PWA 1967

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9 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Or 'sometime cleaned' may merely be arse-covering time. When in even the tiniest doubt, play it safe.

'arse-covering time'......!

Excellent!

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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

 

Maybe someone is able to put the pictures up please for three pennies  UIN 32575 ,32578 and 37644.They may be of know interest to people who know what to look for but might help a new collector or save them a few quid.Bronze go Pink ,brown ,purple or even white and Copper Pink ,purple or black.....Ish colour as depends how much the coin has retoned.The colour can often be blotchy or speckled as the cleaning has changed the metal unevenly.

I

 

img (2).jpg

img (4).jpg

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2049486414_img(7).jpg.3bdf8cd06304c4a0b8f4ffbcc2135539.jpg

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46 minutes ago, Chingford said:

 

img (2).jpg

img (4).jpg

Nice pictures. I keep away from coins that look like this. As you can see, the first three coins look to have a sort of speckled surface.The last coin just looks like it has been polished.

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I still maintain that one can't tell whether a coin has been "cleaned" or not from a photograph. Photos can differ dramatically according to the technology and lighting that are used to take them.

None of the coins pictured above look particularly different from many other of the London Coins photos.

There will never be a substitute for examining the coin in hand. If in doubt before buying or bidding, check that you can return the coin if not satisfied.

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The 1888 and 1909 look very obviously heavily cleaned to me. It is not just the colour, but also the evidence of quite a bit of wear, which is at odds with the apparent lustre. I see quite a few like this, where some amateur has been at them with lemon juice or similar.

I would be less certain of the 1854 - the wear and residual lustre look much more in keeping.

 

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I picked up the F7 penny from the DNW stall at the midland coin fair today, I can’t see any obvious reason to describe it as cleaned, It looks as per the DNW photos and I will have no issue adding it to my collection.

As an aside, while there I bought a reasonable F9 penny, the ex LCA and CCA Elstree specimen, number 10 on Richards site. I paid £750. This coin is now slabbed, and sold unslabbed at LCA in 2016 for £850 plus juice. Thank you TheCoinery, and another Freeman number filled.

Jerry

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12 minutes ago, jelida said:

As an aside, while there I bought a reasonable F9 penny, the ex LCA and CCA Elstree specimen, number 10 on Richards site. I paid £750.

A bargain !

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2021 at 9:45 AM, secret santa said:

I still maintain that one can't tell whether a coin has been "cleaned" or not from a photograph. Photos can differ dramatically according to the technology and lighting that are used to take them.

None of the coins pictured above look particularly different from many other of the London Coins photos.

There will never be a substitute for examining the coin in hand. If in doubt before buying or bidding, check that you can return the coin if not satisfied.

Yes i agree as i mentioned its often hard to tell from a picture ,although you have years of experience and knowledge ,its beginners that are mostly buying them.

Pictures is what most of us buy from and new collectors when they receive the coin are not sure what to look for even when they have the coin in hand.

Without a second opinion they will then as a forum member messaged me last night / this morning told me just put them away ( as he did ) and only find out when they come to sell them or show them in hand to someone else.

Its hard to be sure at first ,although a step in the right direction ,if new collectors have some guide lines to follow. I know or have read on here (BIll pugsley CGS ) people being really dissapointed when they come to sell some that they are not perhaps as good or worth as much as they thought. Plenty people have sent them to a TPG only to find out months after buying them the coin was cleaned / re toned and i dont know anyone personally who did not agree when the pointers were explained to them.Some may not agree and say the TPG does not know what they are doing ,although i feel thats more in disappointment they have been shown something and thought they knew better. 

I have not got any other pictures of cleaned / re toned coins as i have either returned them ,thrown or given them away ,sometimes to forum members.

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Cleaned+Penny&searchtype=1

A sample of ones that LCA have listed as cleaned that i mailed to a forum member which helped him and hat off to LCA and recently DNW for making people aware before bidding.

Edited by PWA 1967
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9 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Cleaned+Penny&searchtype=1

A sample of ones that LCA have listed as cleaned that i mailed to a forum member which helped him and hat off to LCA and recently DNW for making people aware before bidding.

A useful resource - perhaps that link should be put into a separate post and pinned as a Stickie?

It does seem though - from the pictures on the LCA page - that most of those coins look clearly cleaned, especially after a moment or two of inspection.

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3 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

A useful resource - perhaps that link should be put into a separate post and pinned as a Stickie?

It does seem though - from the pictures on the LCA page - that most of those coins look clearly cleaned, especially after a moment or two of inspection.

Lot 1176, from March this year - the 1918H "once cleaned, now retoned". Looks absolutely awful.

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22 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Lot 1176, from March this year - the 1918H "once cleaned, now retoned". Looks absolutely awful.

And if it looks bad to you , I am sure you would not have to travel far to find another person who considers it awful

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14 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

A useful resource - perhaps that link should be put into a separate post and pinned as a Stickie?

It does seem though - from the pictures on the LCA page - that most of those coins look clearly cleaned, especially after a moment or two of inspection.

Very useful resource and thanks to Pete for highlighting it. But If you remember the same suggestion about a sticky was made about Jerry's thread on recording lost and stolen coins. I tagged in the moderator but the request was ignored without response - link to relevant post 

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