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VickySilver

Ongoing Spink Sale (17/1/21) Featuring OUTRAGEOUS Prices

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I am curious to see the catalog of the Tony Abramson Collection of Dark Age Coinage, do you know if the auction has been postponed? 

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3 hours ago, VickySilver said:

I think sales such as this really push collectors into the hole - I think soon there will likely be very few collectors that will attempt any sort of comprehensiveness. It is just now too damn expensive even in areas that used to be cheap (20th C. pre-decimal silver for one !).  Just how many high pound/dollar coins can one afford to hold?

It's difficult to see which direction the market will go, though you can speculate.

It is now very difficult to imagine anyone getting anywhere close to completing a denomination. When I refocused from shillings and halfpennies in 2008, I had a list of 1500 and 2200 varieties respectively just from the various references plus a few others I had identified which were not listed. That was already unfeasible. The same would apply to any denomination with the exception of say double-florins, or quarter guineas. Even the latter with just two currency dates plus a pattern wouldn't be easy. There may be varieties - I don't know. Even for the well-heeled, 5 guineas would cause a headache. Murdoch had the most comprehensive collection of these to date with 43 types out of 47 known in the collection, though he didn't collect by variety (assuming they exist). The days when even a secondary collection would have a dozen or more are long gone. The list goes on.

You are in the same boat with reign type collections. I would suggest that Edward VII is probably the only realistic chance of completion, because the rare pennies of the later reigns may not be available even if the money is. 

What does all this mean? I think you will see a greater number of type collections. Maybe there will be an increased interest in foreign coins which are frequently cheaper due to lack of demand. Date runs have always been popular, even for those without reference books (I often get asked for 1961 halfpennies or 1923-5 & 1941-3 pennies etc, so clearly they don't have even a basic guide).

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1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

Some of these coins were one-offs to be fair, the last James II plume shilling on the market that I know of was Spink SNC in the early 80's - £2,500 for a coin in only fair condition if I remember rightly.  There might have been another sale since but none I know of.

"Conceivably the finest known" is not the case for the 1700 plumes 6d - perhaps "finest known in commerce" might be more accurate, as being a duplicate of the BM's, the BM 's retained one would be better and the Ashmolean has a better one as well:

40603of.jpg

 

That would be a perfect example of something to push the boat out on a type collection. :) Find me another.

Type trumps variety every time though. William III silver is riddled with varieties, some of which are very rare, some to my knowledge unique, but unless they are listed in a reference volume are very difficult to shift.

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I'm pretty close to completing crowns (ignoring proofs) - I of course  lack 1674 and some of the more obscure edge years eg 1671 v. quarto.  Wouldn't get anywhere near it if I was starting now.  I wonder if groats might be do-able - (except the unique 1697?) - one could include/exclude post-1816 maundy depending on resources etc.    

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1 minute ago, pokal02 said:

I'm pretty close to completing crowns (ignoring proofs) - I of course  lack 1674 and some of the more obscure edge years eg 1671 v. quarto.  Wouldn't get anywhere near it if I was starting now.  I wonder if groats might be do-able - (except the unique 1697?) - one could include/exclude post-1816 maundy depending on resources etc.    

You'll struggle with some of the hammered even if you get close with the milled. This one isn't going anywhere and the other is in the BM. It's not the only type you will struggle to get.

 

C1873-1644 4d Rawlins obv Morr. F-2 - Copy.JPG

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I was thinking more of a date run, which isn't much of an issue for hammered apart from some Commonwealth issues & the 1558 penny.  

I've managed one of each reign & mint (except Ashby) for hammered groats and have  a few more varieties I could still pick up. although as you say there a a few I'm either never going to get or won't bother with,.  Have often toyed with expanding into milled groats (definitely easier than shillings)  but something else always comes up!   

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I think most of us are on a hiding to nothing when it comes to setting a goal that is remotely possible. I'm happy with my 12 or 1300 criteria covering Roman to the present day as I can't complete it but it always gives me something to go for, even if it is usually not what I had in mind when I started out that day! It means I can happily accommodate cheap and cheerful things alongside out and out rarities without compromising the collection because everything would have a legitimate place based on my eclectic criteria - even a current copper clad penny sat alongside a 5 guineas would have equal merit. The only issue is discipline, as 'too nice to sell' and 'too nice to pass up' frequently divert me.

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Apologies for missing much of this more recent discussion.

For auctions, I tend to focus on DNW, Spink, BSJ and Heritage. I do look at London Coins but my level of trust with them is such that I will only bid on NGC or PCGS slabbed coins in their auction. I don't bid in all auctions by any means. I have my list of what I'm looking for and if they don't have it, if the quality isn't there or if the price gets silly then I'm generally not interested.

I have always been primarily a sixpence collector but the gaps are fewer, rarer and more expensive now. I did pick up a couple of nice sixpences at Heritage (1703 Lima & 1710) and they were expensive enough. I have my eye on a couple of coins at DNW tomorrow.

I don't really have an overall completion goal as such. I tend to look at it in terms of monarch and I will buy duplicates if it is a good quality upgrade (the 1703 was an upgrade). I've also been branching out with a few type sets and building a couple of proof sets. Still a long way to go with these.

I still do find coins at the quality I want and prices I'm willing to pay. On very odd occasions a coin will come along where I'm willing to pay over the odds. Especially with regard to sixpences, I do know my stuff and I know when it's worth splashing the cash or when it's worth waiting for another one to come along.

Edited by jaggy

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Jaggy, you are most admirable in your pursuit of those sixpences. I have lost a bit of edge what with the economy and the staggering prices, even in late milled predecimal. Every now and then if something is really special I will put us on budget and pray and can get a specimen at only crazy and not insane prices...

I remember not long ago that the 1911 matte proof Halfcrown came up for sale and went to something like 8k pounds plus the juice - that was just too much.

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8 hours ago, jaggy said:

Apologies for missing much of this more recent discussion.

For auctions, I tend to focus on DNW, Spink, BSJ and Heritage. I do look at London Coins but my level of trust with them is such that I will only bid on NGC or PCGS slabbed coins in their auction. I don't bid in all auctions by any means. I have my list of what I'm looking for and if they don't have it, if the quality isn't there or if the price gets silly then I'm generally not interested.

I have always been primarily a sixpence collector but the gaps are fewer, rarer and more expensive now. I did pick up a couple of nice sixpences at Heritage (1703 Lima & 1710) and they were expensive enough. I have my eye on a couple of coins at DNW tomorrow.

I don't really have an overall completion goal as such. I tend to look at it in terms of monarch and I will buy duplicates if it is a good quality upgrade (the 1703 was an upgrade). I've also been branching out with a few type sets and building a couple of proof sets. Still a long way to go with these.

I still do find coins at the quality I want and prices I'm willing to pay. On very odd occasions a coin will come along where I'm willing to pay over the odds. Especially with regard to sixpences, I do know my stuff and I know when it's worth splashing the cash or when it's worth waiting for another one to come along.

I thought that 1696 2nd bust sixpence in the Spink auction was possibly the finest known for the earlier date.

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On 1/18/2021 at 2:25 PM, Rob said:

 

The point I take from recent sales is that there must be a new cohort of buyers who have no experience of what some coins can look like based on the prices paid for indifferent material. Maybe a decade or more of dross on ebay has reset standards in what people perceive to be quality?

Undoubtedly. Although I believe less on eBay, which I feel has gone off the boil and is mostly blatant tat to surely even the most naive of newbies, and more on the newer Facebook 'collector groups'  Many of which are simply selling platforms for the people who set them up with the occasional 'educational' post chucked in to retain interest as they flog their wares.

I often see comments praising what, to me, appear to be fairly run of the mill examples of a coin. Which makes sense to me, since I personally feel I'm still learning!  Despite spending the last decade or so recording examples of what I collect, there are still occasions where it dawns on me how very few coins of a particular variety or mint mark I've actually seen.  On that point, I'm always guided by Richard Lobel's the Coincraft Catalogue where he quotes his mentor saying " 'when you go to value a coin it is what you have not seen rather than what you have seen that matters'. By [which] he meant that, when you see a coin that you have never seen before, forget what it catalogues, it is rare! "

Newer collectors I'm sure think what they are seeing must be the 'finest ever' - aided in some cases by the TPGS claims - when in actual fact a quick search on the BM website or on CoinArchive.com would quickly disabuse them.  And of course, presumably down to Covid in part, people aren't spending on holidays and meals out and are quick to splash their cash on collectables.  Hence the silly money we're seeing now, which some - presumably - see as normal.

I don't know what the future will be like.  I feel as a collector, I'm approaching the limit of my budget, but that's not really new!  Every now and then I see something I can manage - often a conditional rarity - or get tempted by something new - I've recently bought a few historic medals related to Charles I because they're attractive, historically connected and, compared to some of the coins, not too expensive.  But I've had to accept that I will never have a fully representative collection due to the scarcity of some of the types in the series and, often more a factor than the rarity, the fact that some examples only exist in grades that I'd struggle to live with.  Yes, I'm shallow!  But I like to get a buzz when I look at my collection and that generally means a coin has to meet an aesthetic benchmark for me to consider it. 

Sadly (?) many of the coins I'd like currently live in other people's collections.  And are likely to stay there for the foreseeable future.  I therefore have to accept that the best I can hope for is to be considered a minor, but careful, collector for whom eye appeal was important.

God, that was me before I've even had a beer!  Sorry.  I'll shut up now.

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26 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

Undoubtedly. Although I believe less on eBay, which I feel has gone off the boil and is mostly blatant tat to surely even the most naive of newbies, and more on the newer Facebook 'collector groups'  Many of which are simply selling platforms for the people who set them up with the occasional 'educational' post chucked in to retain interest as they flog their wares.

I often see comments praising what, to me, appear to be fairly run of the mill examples of a coin. Which makes sense to me, since I personally feel I'm still learning!  Despite spending the last decade or so recording examples of what I collect, there are still occasions where it dawns on me how very few coins of a particular variety or mint mark I've actually seen.  On that point, I'm always guided by Richard Lobel's the Coincraft Catalogue where he quotes his mentor saying " 'when you go to value a coin it is what you have not seen rather than what you have seen that matters'. By [which] he meant that, when you see a coin that you have never seen before, forget what it catalogues, it is rare! "

Newer collectors I'm sure think what they are seeing must be the 'finest ever' - aided in some cases by the TPGS claims - when in actual fact a quick search on the BM website or on CoinArchive.com would quickly disabuse them.  And of course, presumably down to Covid in part, people aren't spending on holidays and meals out and are quick to splash their cash on collectables.  Hence the silly money we're seeing now, which some - presumably - see as normal.

I don't know what the future will be like.  I feel as a collector, I'm approaching the limit of my budget, but that's not really new!  Every now and then I see something I can manage - often a conditional rarity - or get tempted by something new - I've recently bought a few historic medals related to Charles I because they're attractive, historically connected and, compared to some of the coins, not too expensive.  But I've had to accept that I will never have a fully representative collection due to the scarcity of some of the types in the series and, often more a factor than the rarity, the fact that some examples only exist in grades that I'd struggle to live with.  Yes, I'm shallow!  But I like to get a buzz when I look at my collection and that generally means a coin has to meet an aesthetic benchmark for me to consider it. 

Sadly (?) many of the coins I'd like currently live in other people's collections.  And are likely to stay there for the foreseeable future.  I therefore have to accept that the best I can hope for is to be considered a minor, but careful, collector for whom eye appeal was important.

God, that was me before I've even had a beer!  Sorry.  I'll shut up now.

Hey, I hope you're not referring to me saying "finest ever" about the 1696 6d! But you are right about slabbing grades being used to spin the line of "finest known", whereas they mean - "the highest numerical grade assigned to the small cross-section of a certain variety that has been slabbed, as judged, in possibly only a few seconds, by a grader or graders of unknown experience and ability".

As often noted, slabbing works better for more modern coins (19th and 20th century coins), but certainly for even modern copper and bronze proofs especially, I suspect or know a fair degree of "enhancement" ie colourisation, that goes on. Though I suppose if you keep it in the slab, it will retain its value, so long as the slabbers don't allow too many through.

Absolutely agree that people should look at as many examples of a coin they're interested in; go back through old catalogues with lots of illustrations or on the internet (HA, Noble numismatics, DNW, London Coins, Mark Rasmussen, Sixbid archives etc), see how they're graded and priced (for the time), then compare it to the example you're interested in. This also shows how rare or common it is, as in how many comparable or better ones you can find.

 

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27 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

But you are right about slabbing grades being used to spin the line of "finest known", whereas they mean - "the highest numerical grade assigned to the small cross-section of a certain variety that has been slabbed, as judged, in possibly only a few seconds, by a grader or graders of unknown experience and ability".

Never a truer word.

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I pay no attention to the 'finest known' guff. However, that tends to be put out by the auction houses rather than the TPG when trying to talk up a coin.

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Anyone bidding at DNW?

Currently on DNW auction where similar outrageous prices are seen though, imho, some bargains to be had.

Just won a 'probably finest known' but tbh I've seen better examples however I'm quite happy with price paid and it completed a set so job done.

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9 minutes ago, Diaconis said:

Anyone bidding at DNW?

Currently on DNW auction where similar outrageous prices are seen though, imho, some bargains to be had.

Just won a 'probably finest known' but tbh I've seen better examples however I'm quite happy with price paid and it completed a set so job done.

What? The fifty shillings?

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41 minutes ago, Diaconis said:

Anyone bidding at DNW?

Currently on DNW auction where similar outrageous prices are seen though, imho, some bargains to be had.

Just won a 'probably finest known' but tbh I've seen better examples however I'm quite happy with price paid and it completed a set so job done.

I was watching that auction. I had four lots in my 'cabinet', two of which I would have bid on. However, the prices went way above what I was willing to pay for the two coins. 

I will be interested in what happens in the Heritage auction tomorrow and whether US prices go the same way.

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28 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I was watching that auction. I had four lots in my 'cabinet', two of which I would have bid on. However, the prices went way above what I was willing to pay for the two coins. 

I will be interested in what happens in the Heritage auction tomorrow and whether US prices go the same way.

They already are.

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28 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I was watching that auction. I had four lots in my 'cabinet', two of which I would have bid on. However, the prices went way above what I was willing to pay for the two coins. 

I will be interested in what happens in the Heritage auction tomorrow and whether US prices go the same way.

They've got an Edward VIII 1937 £5 coming up in a month or two - might go for a bit.

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3 minutes ago, Rob said:

They already are.

I'm tracking several lots. So far, prices on them aren't ridiculous although what happens tomorrow remains to be seen.

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£471.200 for the 50 shillings 

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A nasty sting in the tail for me as Spink delivered my lot to an address I left in 2005 (I'd have collected in person but for lockdown restrictions).  Fortunately, although the present occupant had opened the package, she willingly handed it over.    

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49 minutes ago, pokal02 said:

A nasty sting in the tail for me as Spink delivered my lot to an address I left in 2005 (I'd have collected in person but for lockdown restrictions).  Fortunately, although the present occupant had opened the package, she willingly handed it over.    

Have you updated details on your account? Surely that sort of thing should be automated when it comes to taking details off the computer? If you get physical catalogues delivered, that would prove they have the right details, unless you have more than one account.

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1 hour ago, pokal02 said:

A nasty sting in the tail for me as Spink delivered my lot to an address I left in 2005 (I'd have collected in person but for lockdown restrictions).  Fortunately, although the present occupant had opened the package, she willingly handed it over.    

Had a similar issue however luckily I collect our items from their offices. They had been putting sales onto an account with a different address we have used for over 8 years. 

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A nasty sting in the tail for me as Spink delivered my lot to an address I left in 2005 (I'd have collected in person but for lockdown restrictions).  Fortunately, although the present occupant had opened the package, she willingly handed it over.    

 

Myself and Spink both at fault here.  The online invoice did indeed show my old address - it didn't occur to me to check immediately as I've had stuff from Spink sent to my new address many times since 2005.   It seems I must have had two accounts and for some reason they re-activated the dormant one - they have assured me that the two accounts now merged and the old address deleted! 

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