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secret santa

Unrecorded 1806 proof penny ?

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I have recently spent a lot of time adding the George III 1797 and 1805/6 pattern, proof and restrike penny varieties to my varieties website. I thought it needed doing because the pictures in Peck are small, black & white and very low resolution , making it hard to identify individual varieties and check the minute details such as the number of gunports on the ship. I've been taking photographs from auction sites but still need photos of some varieties to complete the task.

While I was doing this, I discovered that my specimen of 1806 "P1326" is, in fact, an unrecorded (as far as I know) die-pairing. Peck, on page 366, states that the only occurrence of the 1806 proof penny with imperfect date figures (1 and 0) is in die-pairing KP31, paired with a reverse featuring a ship with 3 stays from the foremast to the bowsprit, being struck in Gilt (P1325), Bronzed copper (P1326) and Copper (P1327).

However, the penny that I bought from London Coins auction in 2010 (lot 1544) as a Peck 1326 has the obverse with imperfect date figures described above but the reverse of KP30 which Peck records uniquely on P1322, 1323 and 1324 and has only 2 stays from the foremast to the bowsprit and, importantly, a very conspicuous die flaw from the second A of BRITANNIA to the border.

362377950_1806P1326checkBronzedProofobvzoom3.jpg.47c8308a4bb9a56edc7e855d5ed6a948.jpg52080685_1806P1326checkBronzedProofrevzoom1.jpg.b79b358e4dcd7e9b84c35b87add8116c.jpg902869764_1806P1326checkBronzedProofrevzoom2.jpg.cbed0dfeccc60a419d40dab12862f8dd.jpg

I don't know whether this has been noticed and/or recorded before, or how important it is but it is interesting (to me, at least !)

All other specimens of P1325-7 that I have seen have the die-pairing documented by Peck.

Maybe some of you copper experts can comment ?

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2 hours ago, secret santa said:

All other specimens of P1325-7 that I have seen have the die-pairing documented by Peck.

Maybe some of you copper experts can comment ?

As it's an unknown die pairing, could it be a Taylor restrike?

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Are the Taylor restrikes not included in Peck ? I'm woefully ignorant about these early copper coins.

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Yes, restrikes are also in Peck, he was the first person to classify them in detail.

For 1799  - 1807 - if it's got an engrailed edge it's SOHO, not a restrike, and if it's got a plain edge, it probably is a restrike (though not always). That's because Taylor did not have the edging equipment.

It does look like a KP30/31 mule - good discovery! Mick Martin listed a lot of unrecorded SOHO strikes in his SNC June (?) 2009 article addendum. It may be one of those.

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Taylor restrikes are listed on page 366 that you mentioned, but none for the die pairing kp31 with the imperfect figures. Interesting. 

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Posted (edited)

No, it's not mentioned in Mick Martin's article (actually July 2009 SNC) so could be a discovery coin. As Iannich48 says, neither of these dies was used for restriking and I presume it has an engrailed edge.

Edited by oldcopper
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1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

No, it's not mentioned in Mick Martin's article (actually July 2009 SNC) so could be a discovery coin.

Is it possible to access this list of unrecorded strikes to add them to my site ?

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Also, Peck states on page 371 that the currency penny P1342 has the incuse curl "as on all the preceding pennies", i.e proof pennies P1321 to P1341 - but I believe that none of these preceding pennies have the curl - do you agree ?

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2 hours ago, oldcopper said:

 if it's got an engrailed edge it's SOHO

Just checked and it does have the engrailed edge.

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6 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Also, Peck states on page 371 that the currency penny P1342 has the incuse curl "as on all the preceding pennies", i.e proof pennies P1321 to P1341 - but I believe that none of these preceding pennies have the curl - do you agree ?

Looks like you're right there - I've just checked the illustrations.

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Posted (edited)

I would agree with Peck, they do all seem to have the incuse curl. Well it looks like it on your English Pennies and Penny Variety sites Richard. Or am i missing something?

Many thanks, Ian

Edited by Iannich48

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Is it possible to access this list of unrecorded strikes to add them to my site ?

Possibly might be on the Internet. Otherwise perhaps Spink would send you a photocopy?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Iannich48 said:

I would agree with Peck, they do all seem to have the incuse curl. Well it looks like it on your English Pennies and Penny Variety sites Richard. Or am i missing something?

299749107_1806P1342incusecurlzoomwitharrow.JPG.9144c9a3f923420bd55ec1b1d96a0549.JPG

I can't see this curl on any of the other pennies.

Edit: But wait - maybe I can - I'll do some more research.........................................

Edited by secret santa
Correction.

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I was wrong - the incuse curl is present on the earlier Peck numbers, just not as well-defined as my P1342 above.

1710083120_1806P1323Proofobvzoom1.jpg.925e47e5207b2ed5fdc7f338aa65a805.jpg1957237587_1806P1326BronzedProofobvzoom1.jpg.741628ca33710cdacc8d4f890367d79e.jpg

These 2 photos are of my P1323 and KP30/KP31 mule. I take it all back - Peck is correct.

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17 hours ago, secret santa said:

299749107_1806P1342incusecurlzoomwitharrow.JPG.9144c9a3f923420bd55ec1b1d96a0549.JPG

I can't see this curl on any of the other pennies.

I wonder how when and why this came to be called "incuse curl"? It's actually two small raised hair strands.

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I was wrong - the incuse curl is present on the earlier Peck numbers, just not as well-defined as my P1342 above.

1710083120_1806P1323Proofobvzoom1.jpg.925e47e5207b2ed5fdc7f338aa65a805.jpg1957237587_1806P1326BronzedProofobvzoom1.jpg.741628ca33710cdacc8d4f890367d79e.jpg

These 2 photos are of my P1323 and KP30/KP31 mule. I take it all back - Peck is correct.

I thought that i was going mad there, or Peck was hehe. Glad that it all makes sense now.

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On 1/5/2020 at 5:04 PM, oldcopper said:

No, it's not mentioned in Mick Martin's article (actually July 2009 SNC) so could be a discovery coin.

I'll try to get hold of this article. Does this imply that there is no agreed definitive list of all these patterns, proof and restrikes ? And no custodian of such an inventory ?

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Just now, secret santa said:

I'll try to get hold of this article. Does this imply that there is no agreed definitive list of all these patterns, proof and restrikes ? And no custodian of such an inventory ?

How can anyone obtain a definitive list of varieties when every man and his dog (on this site and others) proclaims unrecorded varieties on a daily basis?

I doubt there is a definitive list of varieties for any issue beyond special strikings such as patterns or proofs, and even then it's questionable. Which is precisely why anyone collecting/studying a series in depth needs to acquire all the references available and compile their own list.

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Your rather dismissive reply ignores the fact that a recognised source of such information would act as a reference point to help collectors identify their coins and, of course, to prevent people like me claiming a new variety every day.

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I have searched for the July 2009 SNC too, without success. I would like to see that article, if possible.

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I've just mailed a friend at Spink to see if he can help. Watch this space.

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7 minutes ago, Iannich48 said:

I have searched for the July 2009 SNC too, without success. I would like to see that article, if possible.

Yes, it's a very good article, several pages long. There's the odd mistake but I use it as a regular reference. It's a shame there's no other book since Peck that goes into Copper proofs/patterns in depth - there are references to articles on things like Soho patterns that are apparently very useful but these are often in defunct publications or BNJ (so maybe on the web).

I haven't got a decent scanner unfortunately, all I can suggest is that if you're visiting Spinks (DNW might have it as well) they should be able to provide you with a photocopy (or Secret Santa's reply which I've just seen).

I had a look at my P1323 proof KP30 last night and you're right, it has got the incuse curl. I find it hard to tell without having a strong mag. glass to hand, even then I was getting a bit cross-eyed! Raised/incuse can give an optical illusion of the other way round at times.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Your rather dismissive reply ignores the fact that a recognised source of such information would act as a reference point to help collectors identify their coins and, of course, to prevent people like me claiming a new variety every day.

It isn't dismissive, rather a reflection of how a hobby works. There is no 'official' body responsible for documenting what is a niche interest. Coins might be a relatively major area of research, but the level at which it is possible to attempt anything like a complete study is definitely a niche.

You can forget the Royal Mint as any complete documentation of varieties will fall down in the event of errors, which by definition shouldn't exist. They might have an interest in correcting any errors noted, but not in publicising the fact that they made them in the first place.

Individual museums could possibly compile such a list from the coins in their collections if they had the manpower (which they certainly haven't), but it would still require them to divert resources to what is only a small area of their overall remit. It would also require all museums to direct their individual lists to a central point (probably the BM) where the lists could be converted into a grand list, but even this would exclude items not present in museum collections. You have to think in terms of the overall picture of life, as a museum led directory could reasonably be expected to be replicated across every aspect of life, every part of which is a specific niche. Just looking at my desk, you would need to do the same for scissors, credit cards, pens, computers, cameras,............There would be no commercial benefit accruing from such a compilation, so it would require a lot of goodwill to put into effect even with a large public funding contribution.

Therefore it falls to individuals such as on this forum and elsewhere to compile their own lists, and it's fair to say that on the whole they do a good job, but never a complete one as they cannot see all the material in the market. When I collected shillings and halfpennies as denominations, I also embarked on compiling as complete a list for each as I could. I got to >1500 shillings and >2200 halfpennies at the time, but it was never exhaustive, and I still find things not on the list. I used all the standard references such as ESC, Davies, Coincraft, Peck, Freeman, Withers,  etc and then expanded on these by ploughing through the literally thousands of auction catalogues in my possession. It was never enough. Look at Maurice Bull's efforts on the Charles I halfcrowns, which runs to 5 volumes. It covers a single denomination mostly over a period of 7 years in a less than concise 2100+ pages - and still doesn't record all known varieties.

Even if you compiled a list of all those documented, you are still left with the task of confirmation.

 

 

 

Edited by Rob

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