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azda

Its easy being a dealer

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The other thing I could point out is that we have a section on the forum called “eBay laughs” where we post about sellers there and their grading, so are we saying that for dealers it’s an exception to the rule?

Edited by azda

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22 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

if someone says its AEF or GEF it doesn't mean it is, make your own opinion. 

Agreed. When buying any coin, I take very little notice of the grade assigned by the seller.

I don't even take much notice of my own assessment, as even personal opinions on grading can vary depending on when you look at it.   

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3 minutes ago, azda said:

The other thing I could point out is that we have a section on the forum called “eBay laughs” where we post about sellers there and their grading, so are we saying that for dealers it’s an exception to the rule?

No, not at all. But the grading given by some e bay sellers is not merely the difference between "about EF" and "EF or better". It's more the farcical assessment of a coin as EF, say, when it's only fine.   

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But the point is that everyone has their own view on grades and how to grade. Nobody is 'right', but it is possible to be completely wrong. Ebay laughs highlights the latter, but I would like to point out that as far as I know, no listing has featured for calling a coin fine when it is quite patently uncirculated, even though it would be a legitimate post. Surely undergrading can be just as laughable as overgrading?

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45 minutes ago, azda said:

Can it be subjective if the coin has/had been graded consistently as AEF since 1943? 

By the way, did Baldwins definitely grade it as aEF in 1943?

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6 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

By the way, did Baldwins definitely grade it as aEF in 1943?

I doubt it’s in a catalogue, probably a shop sale, but I could be wrong

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I think we have drifted away from the opening post. The 2015 sale was Slaney part 2. That name was always going to help sales and pre-sale estimates of the total were about £3m, which was in line with coin price inflation since the first portion was sold in 2003. This was not far off the mark. So the initial price paid at £4340 all in was too high against an estimate of 2000-2500. But, for a coin to have sold at such an inflated price is a good marketing point. If it can make this much once, then it could do so again.

The second sale last September reflected the lack of hype associated with Slaney. The success of the first Slaney sale was down to a group of coins that had been off the market for a couple generations. That will always help prices compared to the usual offerings which are returning to market every few years, even though the grade of many items was not particularly brilliant. The second Slaney sale in 2015 flew on the back of the first. 

As for the grading, it is still just a matter of opinion. I noted a post on a US forum which said his agent dealer considered the coin undergraded in a catalogue and so bid it up having assigned a higher grade. As the person responsible for the grade in the catalogue I have to say I disagree with the dealer's assessment, but it is a question of each to their own. At the end of the day, everyone is happy - the vendor for achieving a higher price, me as I was paid for the cataloguing, the buyer getting a coin that he wanted at a price he was happy with and his agent was happy with his commission.

As for the guinea, I haven't seen the coin in question in hand and cannot give my considered opinion of its grade. All I can guarantee is that if I assessed the grade, it will agree with some and disagree with others.

TBH I'm not sure this coin is something a person new to the hobby is likely to be considering, so there is little danger of them getting hurt. Most people entering the hobby start with modern coins that are cheap in case they make a mistake. Gold or silver they usually buy close to spot. A William III guinea doesn't come close to fitting these criteria. Rather more pernicious is the marketing of 'collectable', 'investment coins' that are not coins in any way shape or form. Just this week I picked up around £1Ks worth of these private concoctions that cost the purchaser 4, 5 or more times their intrinsic or secondary market value. Paying 3 figures for a gram of 9 carat gold just because it says highly collectable investment in the advert is not very clever - and so another inheritance nest egg disappoints. There is the real rip-off.

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25 minutes ago, Rob said:

I think we have drifted away from the opening post. The 2015 sale was Slaney part 2. That name was always going to help sales and pre-sale estimates of the total were about £3m, which was in line with coin price inflation since the first portion was sold in 2003. This was not far off the mark. So the initial price paid at £4340 all in was too high against an estimate of 2000-2500. But, for a coin to have sold at such an inflated price is a good marketing point. If it can make this much once, then it could do so again.

The second sale last September reflected the lack of hype associated with Slaney. The success of the first Slaney sale was down to a group of coins that had been off the market for a couple generations. That will always help prices compared to the usual offerings which are returning to market every few years, even though the grade of many items was not particularly brilliant. The second Slaney sale in 2015 flew on the back of the first. 

As for the grading, it is still just a matter of opinion. I noted a post on a US forum which said his agent dealer considered the coin undergraded in a catalogue and so bid it up having assigned a higher grade. As the person responsible for the grade in the catalogue I have to say I disagree with the dealer's assessment, but it is a question of each to their own. At the end of the day, everyone is happy - the vendor for achieving a higher price, me as I was paid for the cataloguing, the buyer getting a coin that he wanted at a price he was happy with and his agent was happy with his commission.

As for the guinea, I haven't seen the coin in question in hand and cannot give my considered opinion of its grade. All I can guarantee is that if I assessed the grade, it will agree with some and disagree with others.

TBH I'm not sure this coin is something a person new to the hobby is likely to be considering, so there is little danger of them getting hurt. Most people entering the hobby start with modern coins that are cheap in case they make a mistake. Gold or silver they usually buy close to spot. A William III guinea doesn't come close to fitting these criteria. Rather more pernicious is the marketing of 'collectable', 'investment coins' that are not coins in any way shape or form. Just this week I picked up around £1Ks worth of these private concoctions that cost the purchaser 4, 5 or more times their intrinsic or secondary market value. Paying 3 figures for a gram of 9 carat gold just because it says highly collectable investment in the advert is not very clever - and so another inheritance nest egg disappoints. There is the real rip-off.

I’d agree entirely with that last sentence, my YouTube friend Numistacker certainly pumps all things Sovereign from the RM and never fails to mention that coin X is getting higher prices in a slabbed holder than raw, yet he always fails to describe the total costs involved with said grading. Just to put it into perspective, a friend of mine who buys the silver proof 50p that the royal mint churn out wanted the latest one graded, I hate doing it as I know it’s not worth the cost involved, the total fee for that was €36 plus his cost to send to me (I’ll take it back to him) but if it was an agent such as Numistacker then there is the return postage fee plus cost of the coin which was £65, so add all that up including eBay and PP fees if it was sold on, I concluded that the coin Numistacker was rambling on about in one of his videos (a 2018 snowman sold for £130) it came to a £5.55 loss. 

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I have seen coins under graded for sale by Ebay dealers and definitely in auction (non-eBay format). Some are not so clear from photographs and so occasionally will take a risk if the outlay is not great, though I admit this is not as frequent as formerly.

My favorite two examples are:

- the Glens 1839 currency 2/6 from year 2000 which they graded as EF, and was clearly better (and I agree with its current slabbing) at PCGS 64 - that is the colourful one on their census site.

- Ebay purchase in year 2003 of 1838 sovereign that looked even from sub-standard pictures to be something either polished, or more likely a proof. Turned out it was a milled edge proof and type previously unknown according to Steve Hill. This I traded for well over TEN times purchase price.

 

Another way that coins are advertised as lower condition than some might think they truly are is from individual (as per Rob's discussion) or regional differences in opinion or grading technique. I find that there are general differences in grading here in the US from the UK, and then there to be at least two groupings of graders in the UK (classical conservative grading, and the newer somewhat laughable "liberal" grading that is so often seen in Ebay examples cited here - but also at auction and at some of the "outted" dealers that have been mentioned on these boards.

But back to the OP point: dealers in the US, and now increasingly in the UK employ the technique of grading lower on buying than on selling. Perhaps it is only natural, and my point is not to be accusatory but rather to broach the phenomenon (again). For the buying collector, IMO it is wise to factor all this in. Other corollaries might be such as developing a rapoire (sp?) with a couple of dealers that they may represent you at auction, or that you know consistently the grading standards of.

I suppose I am with OP in that I try not to pay out the nose if possible and don't like it when it seems excessive advantage is being taken, so it boils down to what is reasonable but not excessive and what that may be to any particular individual.

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1 hour ago, VickySilver said:

I have seen coins under graded for sale by Ebay dealers and definitely in auction (non-eBay format). Some are not so clear from photographs and so occasionally will take a risk if the outlay is not great, though I admit this is not as frequent as formerly.

My favorite two examples are:

- the Glens 1839 currency 2/6 from year 2000 which they graded as EF, and was clearly better (and I agree with its current slabbing) at PCGS 64 - that is the colourful one on their census site.

- Ebay purchase in year 2003 of 1838 sovereign that looked even from sub-standard pictures to be something either polished, or more likely a proof. Turned out it was a milled edge proof and type previously unknown according to Steve Hill. This I traded for well over TEN times purchase price.

 

Another way that coins are advertised as lower condition than some might think they truly are is from individual (as per Rob's discussion) or regional differences in opinion or grading technique. I find that there are general differences in grading here in the US from the UK, and then there to be at least two groupings of graders in the UK (classical conservative grading, and the newer somewhat laughable "liberal" grading that is so often seen in Ebay examples cited here - but also at auction and at some of the "outted" dealers that have been mentioned on these boards.

But back to the OP point: dealers in the US, and now increasingly in the UK employ the technique of grading lower on buying than on selling. Perhaps it is only natural, and my point is not to be accusatory but rather to broach the phenomenon (again). For the buying collector, IMO it is wise to factor all this in. Other corollaries might be such as developing a rapoire (sp?) with a couple of dealers that they may represent you at auction, or that you know consistently the grading standards of.

I suppose I am with OP in that I try not to pay out the nose if possible and don't like it when it seems excessive advantage is being taken, so it boils down to what is reasonable but not excessive and what that may be to any particular individual.

Which has been my point, all I see now is some dealers (I'm not painting them all with the same brush) but what I'm seeing is basically dealers just doubling the price they've paid in auction and that is their retail price, but what I keep asking is why they think the coin is worth 100% of what they've paid because we don't need to hear that they are holding stock to justify some of their prices, even high street shops offer sales on unsold stock, ok, there is the odd bargain that can be found and even an extreme rarity in the case of VS.

I guess some people just have too much money to throw away or simply just don't do research, or these dealers just believe that collectors are gullible enough that they'll trust them and their extortionate prices.....

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As long as we pay the prices, they will do it; for the same reason I refuse to pay more than a certain amount for a loaf of bread at the grocers. I can think of one dealer in the USA that took off on his own from Northeast and follows this policy that Tony speaks of ALL the time - but maybe MORE than double.

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Here's another example from the Benjamin Button 'Rejuvenation issue' Coin collection.  

A 'Very Fine' Cromwell farthing became an 'Extremely Fine' Cromwell farthing with a concomitant EF price, all within the space of a year.

DNW 2013

Hansen.thumb.png.ce57ae0208b4d91614ccbc71368be930.png

BALDWINS FPL 2014 

Baldwin.png.e3a1c4a79ea155b45787e308a6c7acf0.png

Always struck me as strange.

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It really is a case of Caveat Emptor.

Most of us 'regulars' are pretty savvy when it comes to prices. We know our fields of interest, we know when a coin is scarce or doesn't come up for sale very often, we know how to grade, we know how to check auction archives for sale prices. So we don't often overpay for a coin and, if we do, we usually have a good reason to do so.

We also need to understand that a dealer has his/her costs as well and they do need to make a margin on a coin to be able to stay in business. How much that margin is will depend on the costs the dealer has. However, we all know that there is buyers premium on top of the hammer price, that there is postage and insurance to pay both in receiving the coin and in sending it out and there is the cost of capital tied up in the coin. On top of that, the dealer has to make enough profit to make it worth his/her time. All that can add a substantial premium to the hammer price.

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grading has never been consistent over time .:. it’s still done by humans and is therefore subjective .. even professional graders can’t agree .. send the same coin to 3 different TPG’s and it wont come back with an identical grade across all three.

why are the same people on this site so bitter and twisted and hung  up on dealers or anyone for that matter , making a profit .. as long as you’re happy with the coin or the product and with the price who cares what the seller is making or not making...no one is forcing you to buy.

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25 minutes ago, jaggy said:

It really is a case of Caveat Emptor.

Most of us 'regulars' are pretty savvy when it comes to prices. We know our fields of interest, we know when a coin is scarce or doesn't come up for sale very often, we know how to grade, we know how to check auction archives for sale prices. So we don't often overpay for a coin and, if we do, we usually have a good reason to do so.

We also need to understand that a dealer has his/her costs as well and they do need to make a margin on a coin to be able to stay in business. How much that margin is will depend on the costs the dealer has. However, we all know that there is buyers premium on top of the hammer price, that there is postage and insurance to pay both in receiving the coin and in sending it out and there is the cost of capital tied up in the coin. On top of that, the dealer has to make enough profit to make it worth his/her time. All that can add a substantial premium to the hammer price.

Personally I don't think being a dealer should be an excuse for doubling a coin' price, it's their choice of occupation or they have too much money. As I pointed out in another post, retailers also have costs yet can cut their prices in sales and still don't make the same profits on one item sold

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12 minutes ago, Colin88 said:

grading has never been consistent over time .:. it’s still done by humans and is therefore subjective .. even professional graders can’t agree .. send the same coin to 3 different TPG’s and it wont come back with an identical grade across all three.

why are the same people on this site so bitter and twisted and hung  up on dealers or anyone for that matter , making a profit .. as long as you’re happy with the coin or the product and with the price who cares what the seller is making or not making...no one is forcing you to buy.

I would assume you mean me as I started the post, I guess you need to read the whole content and in particularly the part where I said "I don't mind dealers making money" You also take my concerns for the hobby as some sort of attack, it's not, its opening eyes for those who might not be in tune with what I see and what others might not, so please keep the bullshit bitter and twisted talk to yourself, where does twisted even come from?

What is twisted about me pointing out certain facts? Twisted in the fact that dealers are milking some people and it should be highlighted? You obviously feel some people should have their cash taken from them, pretty piss poor from you Colin

I also offered one dealer on here a hammered Noble, Bristol mint, he offered a derisory £2500 said it was bent, to be fair it was but lightly, but the price was still 1k less than I paid, needless to say I sold through Baldwins for £5600

Edited by azda

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Here's a spectacular one - recently a coin went at DNW for £300 hammer, then advertised by a dealer (presumably the auction buyer) at £1200 then another dealer sold it at £2,950 (and it has sold).

All in the space of a few months.

However, it did go for £1900 in 2004 and later Spink (in an SNC) had it for £1550. That's some sinusoidal curve!

Edited by oldcopper

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12 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

That's quite a modest markup compared to some! Here's a spectacular one - recently a coin went at DNW for £300 hammer, then advertised by a dealer (presumably the auction buyer) at £1200 then another dealer sold it at £2,950 (and it has sold).

All in the space of a few months.

However, it did go for £1900 in 2004 and later Baldwins had it for £1550. That's some sinusoidal curve!

The bargain there was obviously the £300 sale. DNW sound as though they were way out with the estimates.

Of course, there are bargains to be had at any given auction. A rare coin might go overlooked by all but the one person who wants it on that day. It happens - not often enough - but it happens.  

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@azda I'd assume on coins you listed yourself for sale (on ebay) you've put them at a  price with a big profit in comparison to what you've paid. You can't call out people for something you do yourself imo

 

Edited by mhcoins

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1 hour ago, mhcoins said:

@azda I'd assume on coins you listed yourself for sale (on ebay) you've put them at a  price with a big profit in comparison to what you've paid. You can't call out people for something you do yourself imo

 

It's business. You make what you can make and what you believe the market can bear.

And it works both ways. I'm sure we have all picked up bargains at auction and from dealers. I don't ever recall offering to pay more than I got the coin for.

Nobody forces you to buy and its up to the buyer to do his/her research and work out how much they are willing to pay.

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On 11/16/2019 at 7:52 PM, Diaconis said:

Here's another example from the Benjamin Button 'Rejuvenation issue' Coin collection.  

A 'Very Fine' Cromwell farthing became an 'Extremely Fine' Cromwell farthing with a concomitant EF price, all within the space of a year.

DNW 2013

Hansen.thumb.png.ce57ae0208b4d91614ccbc71368be930.png

BALDWINS FPL 2014 

Baldwin.png.e3a1c4a79ea155b45787e308a6c7acf0.png

Always struck me as strange.

One thing I will say regarding this coin is that I wasn't at Baldwins when this happened and the responsible party(s) have  left. 

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54 minutes ago, NRP said:

One thing I will say regarding this coin is that I wasn't at Baldwins when this happened and the responsible party(s) have  left. 

No finger pointing here NRP😉

Funny thing is that it started out as F-VF in the Bridgewater sale, then got upgraded by DNW to VF and again by ex-Baldwin employee (?) to EF.

So we have a coin has miraculously gone from F-VF to EF. Seems a purely greedy profit making exercise  to me😂

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In fairness as Cromwell farthings go it is actually a strong one and probably one of the best around - as for the price it was a little on the high side!!!

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3 minutes ago, NRP said:

In fairness as Cromwell farthings go it is actually a strong one and probably one of the best around - as for the price it was a little on the high side!!!

I agree

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.. and here we are again .... all collectors are poor innocent lambs going to the slaughter and all dealers a nasty horrible people ... yawn 

 

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