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Hello....my enquiry is about the 1867 Penny...I have noticed some obverse s of this coin G6 shows spikes emerging from Victorias' throat...they seem to emerge from the front of her neck

and don t seem to be part of the hair tie running behind her neck.....in addition these coins also tend to show a more complex design in the space between the nape of the neck and the hair tie These do not show on most G6 obverses ...in addition to this  the reverse of the coin shows  a die crack which runs from the base of the lighthouse running up under Britannias'  hand and into her shield.......one good example is shown on the 1867 penny sold by London Coins  which has some very rare numbering scratched onto it s obverse...I think it was sold in 2011......I have one of these coins and the crack actually runs further up into Britannia s; bodice...and I have seen at least one other......has anyone else noticed this....? could these be a variety.....thanks Fletch

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Clashed dies. The lines are from the drapery between the shield and right knee. The drapery towards the back of Britannia can be seen between the ties and the back of the neck. These marks are seen frequently and is due to the dies coming together when there is no blank between them. The harder of the two dies will make an impression on the softer one and so depending on which is harder can be seen on both obverses and reverses. The London Coins reverse also shows a faint sign of die clash emanating from the knee, being the section of bust from the chin up to the lips,plus there is more die clash behind Britannia. There is a bit of exergue between the bust and V plus a bit of shield between the ties and terminal D.

Edited by Rob

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Hi Rob thank you..thats very interesting......so what I ve been seeing are a number of coins from that damaged die clash set of dies....The line shown on the reverse of the London Coins example..running from the light to the shield is a lot longer on my coin and runs up into Britannia s bodice....I suppose then that this is due to the worsening condition of the die ....?

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1867 crows foot overlay.jpg

This shows how a rotated clash would be also on an 1867 .

Pete.

Edited by PWA 1967
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4 minutes ago, Fletch said:

Hi Rob thank you..thats very interesting......so what I ve been seeing are a number of coins from that damaged die clash set of dies....The line shown on the reverse of the London Coins example..running from the light to the shield is a lot longer on my coin and runs up into Britannia s bodice....I suppose then that this is due to the worsening condition of the die ....?

Cracked dies (along with die clashes) are very common in pennies from the 1860's and 70's. It's not uncommon to see the same die crack in one penny from a given year, show even more prominently and lengthier, in another from the same year, as the crack deteriorates further.

The mints had a lot of problems with cracked and broken dies in the early days of bronze coinage. 

   

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7 minutes ago, Fletch said:

Hi Rob thank you..thats very interesting......so what I ve been seeing are a number of coins from that damaged die clash set of dies....The line shown on the reverse of the London Coins example..running from the light to the shield is a lot longer on my coin and runs up into Britannia s bodice....I suppose then that this is due to the worsening condition of the die ....?

With the detail being incuse on both dies, any impression from clashing will be raised on the die. This will result in depressed detail on a coin. These new areas of detail will also suffer from wear and you can have clashing on more than one occasion, so it is difficult to say exactly where in the life of the die something has occurred.

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Yes that s neat.....Pete just sent me an image of what must be the Die clash coin of all die clash 1867 s....Britannia shown in full over Victoria.....stunning

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5 minutes ago, Fletch said:

Yes that s neat.....Pete just sent me an image of what must be the Die clash coin of all die clash 1867 s....Britannia shown in full over Victoria.....stunning

No Fletch.......Its an overlay to show the spikes you asked about 🙂.

Although i did have the actual coin and a lot of the die clash did show but not as clear as  the picture above , a forum member has it now. 

Edited by PWA 1967

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Often called the "crow's foot" this die clash occurs on many dates - this one is an 1877.

143406007_1877F91crowsfootzoom.JPG.e20ce5a12eae91ca6ede5081e398256f.JPG

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 8:45 PM, PWA 1967 said:

1867 crows foot overlay.jpg

This shows how a rotated clash would be also on an 1867 .

Pete.

Similarly, clashing on some Victorian Young Head pennies resulted in what some collectors thought was a deliberate tie ribbon 

Victoria Ribbon Explained By Die Clashing Red.jpg

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Thank you...Die troubles indeed.....that s strange , on the 67 I initially saw Britannia s gown pleats at the nape ...which did nt look right...not a forearm   all very neat

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