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Posted (edited)

Not convinced this is F164a. Hard to see the alignment of the colon after BRITT, but the II of VII don't span two beads. LCA lot 2544 Auction 156.

Any thoughts?

img.php?a=156&l=2544&f=r&s=l

http://londoncoins.co.uk/img.php?a=156&l=2544&f=r&s=l

Edited by mrbadexample
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Posted (edited)

Its definately not a F164a Jon as the picture you have put up is a Half penny :D

The one that was with it in the LOT though is spot on.

I of IND to GAP

I of IMP to tooth

I of BRITT to tooth

Then the colons are fine............You been drinking again 😛

Edited by PWA 1967

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Ahhh, sorry Pete, I thought I'd posted the obverse of a penny and the reverse of the halfpenny also in the lot. :lol:

Sorry, I'm a bit of a tit. And yes, some beer was involved, I'm on holiday tomorrow. ;)

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13 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

Not convinced this is F164a. Hard to see the alignment of the colon after BRITT, but the II of VII don't span two beads. LCA lot 2544 Auction 156.

Any thoughts?

img.php?a=156&l=2544&f=r&s=l

http://londoncoins.co.uk/img.php?a=156&l=2544&f=r&s=l

Incorrect image.. so definitely NOT  an F-164a

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13 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Its definately not a F164a Jon as the picture you have put up is a Half penny :D

The one that was with it in the LOT though is spot on.

I of IND to GAP

I of IMP to tooth

I of BRITT to tooth

Then the colons are fine............You been drinking again 😛

I guess I was being redundant.

As you stated, incorrect image. But the coin in question is correct...

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13 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

Ahhh, sorry Pete, I thought I'd posted the obverse of a penny and the reverse of the halfpenny also in the lot. :lol:

Sorry, I'm a bit of a tit. And yes, some beer was involved, I'm on holiday tomorrow. ;)

Enjoy!

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After nearly 7 years (1978, it's discovery - 1984/5) Freeman gave this variety a rarity rating of R5, i.e. 50k - 100k examples in existence. Which makes it pretty common if those were accurate estimates. Perhaps he thought it was generally overlooked (not surprising!) or he knew of quite a few examples? Or perhaps he was just making it up off the top of his head (sacrilege!)? 

There's an example in the latest DNW Sept catalogue, the discovery piece apparently. 

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58 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

After nearly 7 years (1978, it's discovery - 1984/5) Freeman gave this variety a rarity rating of R5, i.e. 50k - 100k examples in existence. Which makes it pretty common if those were accurate estimates. Perhaps he thought it was generally overlooked (not surprising!) or he knew of quite a few examples? Or perhaps he was just making it up off the top of his head (sacrilege!)? 

There's an example in the latest DNW Sept catalogue, the discovery piece apparently. 

I don't think there's as many as that. I'd say it was about R14 (251 to 500 extant, overall), although it's vanishingly rare in high grade.

Yep, the DNW one isn't too bad a specimen at all, although how they can possibly know it's the discovery piece, I've no idea. No provenance is mentioned. 

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

I don't think there's as many as that. I'd say it was about R14 (251 to 500 extant, overall), although it's vanishingly rare in high grade.

 

 

Sounds about right, though it's rarity, as a percentage, is surely exactly the same as worn examples....how could it possibly be otherwise?

If I'm thinking straight,  if the percentage of EF+ examples in the total extant population  is larger than the percentage of 164a's in the total minted population,

then high grades may well be out there.

If it's lower, there won't likely be any.

Same as the 1903 open 3.

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44 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Sounds about right, though it's rarity, as a percentage, is surely exactly the same as worn examples....how could it possibly be otherwise?

If I'm thinking straight,  if the percentage of EF+ examples in the total extant population  is larger than the percentage of 164a's in the total minted population,

then high grades may well be out there.

If it's lower, there won't likely be any.

Same as the 1903 open 3.

As far as the high grade examples are concerned, I meant their rarity as a percentage of the total No of 164A's. 

We know Terry's got one in about EF. But that's the highest grade I know of for a 164A. There's a few at about fine to good fine, but all the rest of the known one's (or the known one's we know about, if you see what I mean) are sub fine. Mostly just VG. 

So based on that, I'd say that the percentage of high grade 164A's in the extant population of 164A's as a whole, is probably <1% of the total. There probably are a few more high grade ones out there, but if there are, they don't seem to be visible. Given the passage of time, you'd have thought they might have shown up by now, given that virtually all high grade 1908's will have been earmarked and examined by now. Although admittedly Terry's was a recent discovery.  

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Posted (edited)

It would probably be interesting to know the contents of the letter by Mr.Freeman in 1978 for the DNW coin.

A possibility was the coin was part of a large collection that has been sold by DNW recently and could therefore all stack up if only to confirm they were discovered around 1978.

It wouldnt make the coin IMO worth anymore although its better than most and probably know photographs were taken at the time to confirm but an interesting coin with a letter 🙂

If anyone does view the coin / letter and would be prepared to share ( even after buying it ) the information on here or by PM please do.

 

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=512&lot_id=64543

Pete.

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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To me it seem there are only three ways in which high grade examples survive 

1  That somebody in 1908 or any other year stored away a batch of brand new examples which then at a later date ended up in the hands of collectors.    [ if this had happened to the 164a you would have expected many examples in high grade to be in circulation between collectors and dealers.  This I think must have been the case for the F14  LCW under foot, of which there are many high grade examples, also I believe with the 2*   which I surmise was part of a test run using this die that were never released into circulation, but that a small batch was smuggled out of the mint. This would account for all of the examples found so far  being of a high grade,

2  That an odd example is taken out of the country in loose change, and being of no use in that country sat in the back of a draw for many years surviving almost unworn 

3 and the odd example or two that was lost at or around the time of the production, and survived at the back of a draw , or by falling through the floorboards, or some other such way.  These lost coins that subsequently reappear would I think be what happened to the odd 164a and the Hollow neck and open 3,  though not in the case of the F169 ,  as I personally have never seen an example better than good fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

It would probably be interesting to know the contents of the letter by Mr.Freeman in 1978 for the DNW coin.

A possibility was the coin was part of a large collection that has been sold by DNW recently and could therefore all stack up if only to confirm they were discovered around 1978.

It wouldnt make the coin IMO worth anymore although its better than most and probably know photographs were taken at the time to confirm but an interesting coin with a letter 🙂

If anyone does view the coin / letter and would be prepared to share ( even after buying it ) the information on here or by PM please do.

 

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=512&lot_id=64543

Pete.

 

Ah, I see there is something in the small print about the letter. Missed that earlier.

Yes, would be very interesting to see it, Pete.

Edited by 1949threepence

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10 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

As far as the high grade examples are concerned, I meant their rarity as a percentage of the total No of 164A's. 

We know Terry's got one in about EF. But that's the highest grade I know of for a 164A. There's a few at about fine to good fine, but all the rest of the known one's (or the known one's we know about, if you see what I mean) are sub fine. Mostly just VG. 

So based on that, I'd say that the percentage of high grade 164A's in the extant population of 164A's as a whole, is probably <1% of the total. There probably are a few more high grade ones out there, but if there are, they don't seem to be visible. Given the passage of time, you'd have thought they might have shown up by now, given that virtually all high grade 1908's will have been earmarked and examined by now. Although admittedly Terry's was a recent discovery.  

Yep- that makes sense.

Mind you, if, as seems likely, that most 1908's in good nick have been examined, then from how many there are and how many of them are 164a,

you could judge the actual 164a mintage....

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One thing that must be taken into account is that the F164a was not discovered until after the recall of all the pre decimal coinage , and that means that none were syphoned out of the vast numbers of the 1908s still in circulation back in 1967. This disproportionate survival rate of known scarce and rare types can be seen with the 1912 and 1912H , as when I was young in the 1960s the 1912s were really common, but the 1912H was scarce, but if you look on e-bay today there are far more 12Hs than 12s due I think to the hording of 12H and the 12s being withdrawn and melted down.   I would personally think that the F164a is as rare as R15 ie  101 to 250, this judged by the numbers turning up and the prices they attain.  As you say more are coming to light all the time, and its down to the internet , and the high quality of the pictures now available to us making them easer to spot.   just my opinion but I think that they are just a little rarer than the open 3 ,

 

 

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34 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

One thing that must be taken into account is that the F164a was not discovered until after the recall of all the pre decimal coinage , and that means that none were syphoned out of the vast numbers of the 1908s still in circulation back in 1967. This disproportionate survival rate of known scarce and rare types can be seen with the 1912 and 1912H , as when I was young in the 1960s the 1912s were really common, but the 1912H was scarce, but if you look on e-bay today there are far more 12Hs than 12s due I think to the hording of 12H and the 12s being withdrawn and melted down.   I would personally think that the F164a is as rare as R15 ie  101 to 250, this judged by the numbers turning up and the prices they attain.  As you say more are coming to light all the time, and its down to the internet , and the high quality of the pictures now available to us making them easer to spot.   just my opinion but I think that they are just a little rarer than the open 3 ,

 

 

Great point, Terry. Although more have turned up in recent years, inevitably the supply will soon rapidly dwindle, as the vast majority of existing 1908's will have been examined. Also, all the current specimens will have been bought by collectors and most of them won't re-appear for sale, for some considerable time.   

The comparative rarity can almost be assessed by the scarcity in high grade. Obviously there were many collectors pre melt, and stretching right back down the decades. Many of them will have collected high grade and UNC 1908's, of which a lot are still around and turn up fairly regularly. The fact that none of them are 164A's points to their rarity, as surely the odd one or two would have been randomly collected in UNC. Obviously, the vast majority will be 166's - even the 164's and 165's not being anywhere near as common as the 166. 

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I do think your right in that the supply of rare unattributed coins will gradually dwindle as there's is a finite number of coins to be discovered , As to collecting though I think that as the kids of today start to bore of internet games the same media ie the internet will actually in courage  more people to take up collecting again.

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3 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

I do think your right in that the supply of rare unattributed coins will gradually dwindle as there's is a finite number of coins to be discovered , As to collecting though I think that as the kids of today start to bore of internet games the same media ie the internet will actually in courage  more people to take up collecting again.

The really outstanding thing about coin collecting is that the rules never change. What you picked up as knowledge aged 8, will still be the same when you're 80. The coin you saved aged 8, will still look the same when you're 80. It's solid, real and long lasting. Unlike internet games which are transient and ever changing. Most will be forgotten in a few years.

Judging by the coin groups on facebook, there are quite a few young people under 25 getting into the hobby, as well as some more experienced collectors. A blend of youth and experience, to use a footballing analogy - and guess what, pennies are popular !

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8 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

One thing that must be taken into account is that the F164a was not discovered until after the recall of all the pre decimal coinage , and that means that none were syphoned out of the vast numbers of the 1908s still in circulation back in 1967. This disproportionate survival rate of known scarce and rare types can be seen with the 1912 and 1912H , as when I was young in the 1960s the 1912s were really common, but the 1912H was scarce, but if you look on e-bay today there are far more 12Hs than 12s due I think to the hording of 12H and the 12s being withdrawn and melted down.   I would personally think that the F164a is as rare as R15 ie  101 to 250, this judged by the numbers turning up and the prices they attain.  As you say more are coming to light all the time, and its down to the internet , and the high quality of the pictures now available to us making them easer to spot.   just my opinion but I think that they are just a little rarer than the open 3 ,

I agree with your main point, but disagree about the 1912H - I found an absolute load of them from 68-70; there were actually 16M minted so they were never a scarce coin. They're the same mintage as 1922, twice as common as 1932. 

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Misuse of the word scarce perhaps on my part, what was meant was that the 12H was scarcer than the 12 and its the other way around today with there being more 12Hs than 12s.

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Judging by the coin groups on facebook, there are quite a few young people under 25 getting into the hobby, as well as some more experienced collectors. A blend of youth and experience, to use a footballing analogy - and guess what, pennies are popular !

Is this really so surprising? Your somewhat diversionary handle replied to terrysoldpennies in the previous post for the simple reason that you are both into pennies. Surely this forum is society and its habits on a local scale? People who collect coins will migrate to a collective centre just as any other interest group would do. Certain geographical areas become known for their ethnic mix because they are full of people who are culturally similar. The Eisteddfod is mainly frequented by Welsh people. So when you have to 'friend' (I think the phrase is?) someone to join a Facebook group, it is not surprising they have the same interests as you because that is how you became acquainted in the first place and why they were allowed to join the group. I know this is a chicken and egg situation, but like-minded people will always find their own. The real problem is finding people who are not part of a social group and integrating them, and we all know that many collectors are fairly reclusive.

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14 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Misuse of the word scarce perhaps on my part, what was meant was that the 12H was scarcer than the 12 and its the other way around today with there being more 12Hs than 12s.

Yes, I can well understand that. It's the same with brass 3d - the proportion of 46, 49, 50, 51 in relation to common dates is far higher than pre-71. In fact, with all 'key' dates collected in the late 60s.

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9 hours ago, Rob said:

Is this really so surprising? Your somewhat diversionary handle replied to terrysoldpennies in the previous post for the simple reason that you are both into pennies. Surely this forum is society and its habits on a local scale? People who collect coins will migrate to a collective centre just as any other interest group would do. Certain geographical areas become known for their ethnic mix because they are full of people who are culturally similar. The Eisteddfod is mainly frequented by Welsh people. So when you have to 'friend' (I think the phrase is?) someone to join a Facebook group, it is not surprising they have the same interests as you because that is how you became acquainted in the first place and why they were allowed to join the group. I know this is a chicken and egg situation, but like-minded people will always find their own. The real problem is finding people who are not part of a social group and integrating them, and we all know that many collectors are fairly reclusive.

I'm not sure what was 'diversionary' about it. I was simply expanding on the very valid point made by Terry about young people finding their way into the hobby.  

People are either invited onto facebook groups by existing friends, or they are presented from time to time, with various options to join groups presented to them by facebook itself, and ask to join of their own volition. 

The point was about young people joining the hobby. Facebook helps to facilitate this and stimulate interest. As do other internet groups. 

There always have been and always will be, reclusive individuals. Actually the internet is great for such types as they can join in, but also stay anonymous. Or even just 'lurk' on a hobby site like this, and not participate as such, but merely observe and learn.

 

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6 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I'm not sure what was 'diversionary' about it. I was simply expanding on the very valid point made by Terry about young people finding their way into the hobby.  

People are either invited onto facebook groups by existing friends, or they are presented from time to time, with various options to join groups presented to them by facebook itself, and ask to join of their own volition. 

The point was about young people joining the hobby. Facebook helps to facilitate this and stimulate interest. As do other internet groups. 

There always have been and always will be, reclusive individuals. Actually the internet is great for such types as they can join in, but also stay anonymous. Or even just 'lurk' on a hobby site like this, and not participate as such, but merely observe and learn.

 

Your name is 1949 threepence - should be 1949 penny. Everything is not as it seems. :ph34r:

My point about joining groups is that if you don't know anyone outside of social media, you are unlikely to be invited into a social circle randomly unless already acquainted. I'm not sure I or anyone else would want to accept a Facebook invitation to join given their ulterior motives. Because Facebook blocks those who aren't allowed access, this has to be the biggest hurdle to getting new faces. At least on this forum you can post as a guest in some areas, and register as a member without being automatically blocked from communicating. Although social media is unquestionbly more popular than a forum, I still fail to see how it can provide the ease of access of the latter.

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7 minutes ago, Rob said:

Your name is 1949 threepence - should be 1949 penny. Everything is not as it seems. :ph34r:

My point about joining groups is that if you don't know anyone outside of social media, you are unlikely to be invited into a social circle randomly unless already acquainted. I'm not sure I or anyone else would want to accept a Facebook invitation to join given their ulterior motives. Because Facebook blocks those who aren't allowed access, this has to be the biggest hurdle to getting new faces. At least on this forum you can post as a guest in some areas, and register as a member without being automatically blocked from communicating. Although social media is unquestionbly more popular than a forum, I still fail to see how it can provide the ease of access of the latter.

You can post as a guest here, but you have to have some vestige of interest to even look for the forum.

My point with facebook is that it reaches out to a very wide audience - billions globally - and there are many coin groups on it. Not just in the UK but around the world. None of them are difficult to join. With many, the applicant is added immediately via robotics. You personally may not want to accept a FB invitation, but respectfully, you are of a different generation to the one I'm referring to. Many of them will join a given group, take a quick look at the contributions, and either stay, or leave the group immediately because it's of no interest to them. 

I do think FB provides an ideal platform, and by logical extension, ease of access to any interest, coins included, to the young people Terry initially referred to.

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