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Spudger

Seeking advice on mintage figures

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I have a 1913 halfcrown S4011.

 ESC 6th edition page 650 gives mintage as 4,090,169

Collectors Coins 2016 show 1,090,160

Which number should I take?

Is there a definitive list, for British silver that is accepted as accurate that I can use in future

 

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8 minutes ago, Spudger said:

I have a 1913 halfcrown S4011.

 ESC 6th edition page 650 gives mintage as 4,090,169

Collectors Coins 2016 show 1,090,160

Which number should I take?

Is there a definitive list, for British silver that is accepted as accurate that I can use in future

 

The correct mintage figure for the 1913 halfcrown is 4,090,169. 

I get my mintage figures from any Coin Yearbook. The 2020 one will be out soon - just google Token publishing. You can download one.

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

The correct mintage figure for the 1913 halfcrown is 4,090,169. 

I get my mintage figures from any Coin Yearbook. The 2020 one will be out soon - just google Token publishing. You can download one.

Yes. If it was 1m it would be a scarcity on the level of the 1925 halfcrown. It IS scarce - rare in top grades - and definitely worth collecting. It has always been a 'key date'.

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Thank you for your responses. I've checked out the Coin Yearbook and I'll download the 2020 edition when it appears.

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It has been suggested that the mintage figures supplied by the RM  are the actual amount of coins of that denomination that were delivered for circulation during a specific year and could contain coins from previous years mintages that were not delivered previously.  I do not know how true this is but if it is the actual number of coins bearing a particular date could vary significantly from the figures provided by the RM.

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I've seen this before. Are the year figures minted or delivered. Surely RM should know. If the difference is significant wouldn't be in everyones interest for the big dealers to put the screws on and get an answer.

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40 minutes ago, Spudger said:

I've seen this before. Are the year figures minted or delivered. Surely RM should know. If the difference is significant wouldn't be in everyones interest for the big dealers to put the screws on and get an answer.

No dealer is privy to the past, present or future internal operation of the Royal Mint, who remain the sole source of any info that may be relied on. Whether it's accurate or not is moot, but is the only first hand account available.

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1 hour ago, Spudger said:

I've seen this before. Are the year figures minted or delivered. Surely RM should know. If the difference is significant wouldn't be in everyones interest for the big dealers to put the screws on and get an answer.

I believe it used to be the case that coins minted in any given calendar year formed the basis of that year's mintage figures. A complication could arise owing to coins being minted at the start of a given year, still bearing the previous year's date, thus distorting the mintage for the dated coin. 

To the best of my knowledge this practice was phased out at some point in the 20th century, but not sure precisely when. 

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23 minutes ago, Rob said:

No dealer is privy to the past, present or future internal operation of the Royal Mint, who remain the sole source of any info that may be relied on. Whether it's accurate or not is moot, but is the only first hand account available.

Agreed.. However some coins seem to be  more plentiful than the mintage figures suggest while others less so. For example I've been trying to upgrade my 1911 florin mintage 5.9 million but when I look it's easier to get a proof coin with a mintage of 15000. In fact the normal issue coins are pretty thin on the ground. In addition as this coin was the first of its type to be issued and usually more are put aside as mementos and as a result more plentiful. This is not the case with this issue. Maybe its a coincidence ?

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14 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I believe it used to be the case that coins minted in any given calendar year formed the basis of that year's mintage figures. A complication could arise owing to coins being minted at the start of a given year, still bearing the previous year's date, thus distorting the mintage for the dated coin. 

To the best of my knowledge this practice was phased out at some point in the 20th century, but not sure precisely when. 

 

You are right Mike, about the mint previously continuing to mint coins of the previous year, as long as the dies were serviceable. A good example is the 1869 Penny. Mintage is shown as  2,580,480, though far less were actually minted with the 1869 date...most were 1868. Gouby in his book estimated the actual mintage of the 1869's at either 600,000 or 800,000 (I forget the actual number, but was less than 1 million), which is why it is a scarce coin. 

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Well it looks like this is a whole can of worms. What information does RM hold? What was their policy? What figures do they have if any? Why are they so secretive? I wonder what effect an application under the Freedom of Information Act would have especially if they came from leading dealers? Failing that how about a load coming from opur members.

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3 minutes ago, Spudger said:

Well it looks like this is a whole can of worms. What information does RM hold? What was their policy? What figures do they have if any? Why are they so secretive? I wonder what effect an application under the Freedom of Information Act would have especially if they came from leading dealers? Failing that how about a load coming from opur members.

A FOI request might well be worth a try. I've got a fair amount of useful info from the R M that way. 

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10 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

 

You are right Mike, about the mint previously continuing to mint coins of the previous year, as long as the dies were serviceable. A good example is the 1869 Penny. Mintage is shown as  2,580,480, though far less were actually minted with the 1869 date...most were 1868. Gouby in his book estimated the actual mintage of the 1869's at either 600,000 or 800,000 (I forget the actual number, but was less than 1 million), which is why it is a scarce coin. 

Funnily enough Bob, I was thinking of the situation in 1868 and 1869 when I posted. 

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6 hours ago, Spudger said:

Well it looks like this is a whole can of worms. What information does RM hold? What was their policy? What figures do they have if any? Why are they so secretive? I wonder what effect an application under the Freedom of Information Act would have especially if they came from leading dealers? Failing that how about a load coming from opur members.

I think you're confusing currency and commemorative coins. With the former there is no secrecy - the published figures before 1953 are for coins minted in a given year whatever date was on them (I believe 1953 was the year it changed, Mike?). As for dealers, their interest is to preserve the status quo not stir things up.

With commems, the situation is reversed. The RM uses perceived scarcity to sell its issues so sometimes it pays to conceal the actual figures.

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The RM's output was also shipped out to th Empire as it was then. How these coins related to the year of minting /year of issue as they took many months to arrive at  their destination. I cannot speak for other countries but the numbers issued in Australia was recorded by the Sydney, Melbourne mints. In the case of gold coins the coins were minted in Australia  with mint marks for Sydney mint etc. No doubt the reverse would have been true with Australian minted gold coins going to the UK. In conclusion the minting and distribution of coins would have been a complex operation. With the date stamped on a coin agreeing with the year of issue being the least of the mint's problem.

As Rob says the mint records are the only guide we have but is probably on shaky ground. As a practical test you can check Ebay  listings for a particular year and do this over time can give some idea of rarity of a coin. For example for a 1913 halfcrown you do not find too many listed at any one time something I have found to be consistent over time.

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9 hours ago, Spudger said:

Well it looks like this is a whole can of worms. What information does RM hold? What was their policy? What figures do they have if any? Why are they so secretive? I wonder what effect an application under the Freedom of Information Act would have especially if they came from leading dealers? Failing that how about a load coming from opur members.

I think more than just a freedom of information request is needed - at least in the early days all that was recorded was output in a calendar year (which is often a good enough approximation) but to find the truth you'd need to dig through the die production, usage and destruction register(s) to find out what dies were used and when.

In the latest Australian Coin and Banknote Magazine Howard Hodgson finally put the mystery of the 1927M sovereign to bed - reports say a few hundred thousand were struck but further investigation showed they all struck in January 1927, most likely before 1927-dated dies arrived in Australia. It was a note accompanying the coins sent to London for the Trial of the Pyx that actually confirmed that all of the coins were struck before 1927-dated dies arrived in Australia.

While London-struck coins didn't have the issue of a multi-month sea journey to complicate things I'm sure die production was not always in sync with the calendar.

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On 7/29/2019 at 8:38 PM, Peckris 2 said:

I think you're confusing currency and commemorative coins. With the former there is no secrecy - the published figures before 1953 are for coins minted in a given year whatever date was on them (I believe 1953 was the year it changed, Mike?). As for dealers, their interest is to preserve the status quo not stir things up.

With commems, the situation is reversed. The RM uses perceived scarcity to sell its issues so sometimes it pays to conceal the actual figures.

A bit later than I'd imagined. Thanks Chris.

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I've been reading with interest all the responses to my original query and it appears things are not as simple as I hoped.

"It has been suggested that the mintage figures supplied by the RM "

"The published figures before 1953 are for coins minted in a given year" 

Above are two extracts from posts.

Minted figures supplied by RM and published figures are these one and the same?

If so where can I access the figures supplied by RM?

 

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'Published' mintages (i.e. in catalogues and guides) are taken from the Mint's figures. There is no separate source. CCGB is your best bet for figures from the late 18thC.

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