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JLS

Mystery "BB" commercial countermark on 1883 penny...

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I have a bit of a sideline collection right now of commercial countermarks on 19th century coinage. As well as all the usual Pears Soap and Lloyd's newspaper ones there are quite a few which are hard to identify. Anyone got any clues on this one ? The B-B in a triangle is pretty distinctive but I'm struggling to place it myself. 

bbcoin.jpg

bbcoin2.jpg

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Could it be EHB?

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On 6/28/2019 at 1:20 PM, Diaconis said:

Could it be EHB?

With a bit of imagination - yes ! Or BHB, BLB...etc.

Am going to keep my eyes peeled for any others with this countermark (never seen any) or SENSE - if they turn up regionally might give a clue to origin. 

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Found this 30 years ago, lost it, and it turned up this morning.

I've never been able to find out what the stamp meant commercially....

1832091477_P10307822.jpeg.8478e21c27268053677566a996043e16.jpeg1146009971_P10307832.jpeg.38e3e8ee5cf57e29df75575d4ac12973.jpeg1146009971_P10307832.jpeg.38e3e8ee5cf57e29df75575d4ac12973.jpeg

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Some of these marks are interesting, but you do wonder why they got stamped on in the first place. What exactly was the point, unless for pure amusement - as with trench art. Maybe pennies were just sometimes taken out of pockets to test punches.

It seems to be largely a preserve of 19th century coins, predominantly pennies, together with drilling holes through the coins.  Not counting "votes for women", which apart from the odd genuine one, is a wholly 21st century initiative. 

The two above are unusual inasmuch as they are neater and cleverer than usual. Blake's maybe (possibly) meant as a representation of a zulu spear. JLS's is anybody's guess. Not only as to whether the apparent B's are meant as B's, some other lettering/numbering combination, or in fact a pattern which has no relation to letters/numbers. Moreover, what's the significance of the larger V to the lower right, or the word "sense", which might have been added later or earlier?

We'll never know.  

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Quote

Shaka of the Zulu invented a shorter-style spear with a two-foot shaft and which had a larger, broader blade one foot long. This weapon is otherwise known as the iklwa or ixwa, after the sound that was heard as it was withdrawn from the victim's wound. It was used as a stabbing weapon.

 

zulu spear.jpg

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It's the fact that the punch used must have been expensive to make, so it was either tested on a pocket coin,

and was intended  to be used on a product or other, or was intended to only be stamped onto pennies,

but to what end?   Product advertising?

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1 hour ago, blakeyboy said:

It's the fact that the punch used must have been expensive to make, so it was either tested on a pocket coin,

and was intended  to be used on a product or other, or was intended to only be stamped onto pennies,

but to what end?   Product advertising?

Maybe some were designed for advertising. Quite a neat way of advertising when you think about it - for the era. Coins, especially pennies, would be very widely circulated and go through a lot of hands. 

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9 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Found this 30 years ago, lost it, and it turned up this morning.

I've never been able to find out what the stamp meant commercially....

1832091477_P10307822.jpeg.8478e21c27268053677566a996043e16.jpeg1146009971_P10307832.jpeg.38e3e8ee5cf57e29df75575d4ac12973.jpeg

Fascinating !

The Pitt River's Museum in Oxford has a bun penny with "CETEWAYO" (Cetshwayo kaMpande, Zulu king in the 1870s) countermarked on it. The origin is obscure.

It's possible this piece is instead related to HMS Zulu (1909) rather than having any connection with South Africa. 

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I've just noticed that the shaft of the spear on the reverse is just in front of Victoria's nose,

and the tip of her nose is more worn than I would expect,  so, even though the stamp is very clean and sharp,

this penny saw quite a bit of circulation after it was stamped...

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4 hours ago, JLS said:

Fascinating !

The Pitt River's Museum in Oxford has a bun penny with "CETEWAYO" (Cetshwayo kaMpande, Zulu king in the 1870s) countermarked on it. The origin is obscure.

It's possible this piece is instead related to HMS Zulu (1909) rather than having any connection with South Africa. 

That's the penny presented to Michael Caine in 1964.

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4 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

That's the penny presented to Michael Caine in 1964.

Not a lot of people know that......

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1 hour ago, blakeyboy said:

I've just noticed that the shaft of the spear on the reverse is just in front of Victoria's nose,

and the tip of her nose is more worn than I would expect,  so, even though the stamp is very clean and sharp,

this penny saw quite a bit of circulation after it was stamped...

Good point, well observed. 

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9 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

That's the penny presented to Michael Caine in 1964.

Ah, was it a prop in Zulu ? I wonder how it got in the Pitt Rivers....

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14 hours ago, JLS said:

Ah, was it a prop in Zulu ? I wonder how it got in the Pitt Rivers....

I was joking, but glad you got the reference. ;)

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23 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

I was joking, but glad you got the reference. ;)

I'm glad - there is a real movie prop coin listed in Krause's Unusual World Coins so I wasn't sure if you were being serious !

 

 

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Here are two more obscure pieces from my collection - probably checks or passes of commercial use. One is counterstamped on a cartwheel penny, the other appears to have been stamped on a blank piece of metal. Appreciate any insight ! 

 

 

check1.JPG

check2.JPG

eg1.JPG

Eg2.JPG

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I've seen EG before on large copper. It may be one of the few countermarked coins in Davis & Waters "Tickets & Passes", but my copy is currently on the missing list.

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6 hours ago, bagerap said:

I've seen EG before on large copper. It may be one of the few countermarked coins in Davis & Waters "Tickets & Passes", but my copy is currently on the missing list.

Ah, that's a book I'd really like - just don't like the price-tag. I will have a look in a library copy if I get a chance. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 10:57 AM, 1949threepence said:

It seems to be largely a preserve of 19th century coins, predominantly pennies, together with drilling holes through the coins.  Not counting "votes for women", which apart from the odd genuine one, is a wholly 21st century initiative. 

 

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On 7/21/2019 at 11:35 PM, JLS said:

Here are two more obscure pieces from my collection - probably checks or passes of commercial use. One is counterstamped on a cartwheel penny, the other appears to have been stamped on a blank piece of metal. Appreciate any insight ! 

 

 

check1.JPG

check2.JPG

eg1.JPG

Eg2.JPG

Maybe top one is pit token or tool chitty ?

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Poor old George III - he seems to have eg on his face...

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47 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Poor old George III - he seems to have eg on his face...

dadahh!.mp3

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On 10/28/2019 at 4:17 PM, rooneydog said:

Maybe top one is pit token or tool chitty ?

Probably - the question is from where ! The lettering style looks late 18th century or early 19th century to me but otherwise there don't seem to be many clues...

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It could have been used as an entry to a factory or mine chitty - these coins would have been easy available at minimal cost in the 1860 onward - they could have stood at the entrance to a factory -mine -etc and the person who initals were on it would take it when he started work .

It would be easy to work out who exactly was there if an accident happened .

All the coins have initials on them so even a very casual workforce would be easy everyone was given a coin after being inerviewed

The coins would stand in a rack at the entrance to the works possably guarded by another person who would also enter them into a ledger for payment purposes .

 

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