Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

1949threepence

Is the given letter or number to a gap or a tooth?

Recommended Posts

Does anyone else send themselves boggle eyed trying to tell the difference, and arriving at different conclusions when looking at the same coin at separate times, or is it just me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes - which is why I raised a topic on 1858 large & small date pennies - I was finding it hard to tell the difference when looking at a single coin in hand.

You are not alone....................

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lighting has a huge effect on your perception. If you are accustomed to lighting from the top, then if done from the bottom, the relief detail often appears incuse until your brain has adjusted. Needless to say, that shifts the teeth half a position.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can also be totally fooled by the photo, which can distort the true appearance. A few weeks ago I bought what I thought - was indeed convinced - from the photo, was a 1908, 164A. Only very cheap, fortunately. But when in hand and through a loupe, I could quite clearly see that it was a mere 164.   

Definitely the same coin as other indicators matched. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I now think I've done that with a 1911 penny this week.

Done it before on a 1909- the picture was definitely showing '1' over the tooth.

Not when it turned up. Same coin, different lighting.....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I now think I've done that with a 1911 penny this week.

Done it before on a 1909- the picture was definitely showing '1' over the tooth.

Not when it turned up. Same coin, different lighting.....

Indeed. It's not a true optical illusion or deliberate trick photography. It's us reading the picture wrongly. 

Usually when you re-examine, there's some other context detail you've overlooked. Such as there's one less tooth between the previous letter and the one you're looking at, than on the real thing. 

You have to check, double check and triple check.    

The 1909 one is difficult, as depending on how you look at it, the base of the one can be over a tooth or over a gap. Although on the real deal, there seems to be a marginally larger space between teeth, and the base of the one is literally smack over the tooth. I would say with that one, unless it's absolutely obvious at first glance under magnification, then it isn't a 169. The hollow neck is really difficult though, IMO. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. Very annoying when the only thing you have to go on is denticle alignment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Mr T said:

Yes. Very annoying when the only thing you have to go on is denticle alignment.

Precisely. For instance, from being in hand I know that the first picture below is a F160, and the second a F161. But I'm not convinced from the pic in this e bay link that the coin is a 160 as stated by the vendor. The non enlarged pic appears to suggest that it is, but once enlarged it looks like the upright E of penny is to a tooth, as per a 161, and not to a gap.

  

Freeman 160.jpg

Freeman 161.jpg

Edited by 1949threepence
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Precisely. For instance, from being in hand I know that the first picture below is a F160, and the second a F161. But I'm not convinced from the pic in this e bay link that the coin is a 160 as stated by the vendor. The non enlarged pic appears to suggest that it is, but once enlarged it looks like the upright E of penny is to a tooth, as per a 161, and not to a gap.

  

Looks like a 161 to me too.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be other differences . in the picture below, the top two are both F160s, one with a small o the other the large O and with both of these the 5 is almost centred over the tooth , also both have a normal length tail to the 9.  Whereas on the F161 [the bottom date of the three] the 5 is centred over the gap between the teeth, and seems to have a  9  with a shorter tail.

964781894_1905threetypsofdate.JPG.4d596a66290c10f8834b11941a9807c2.JPG

Edited by terrysoldpennies
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the position of the 5 is significant. But not the tail of the 9 which can be affected by die wear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

There seems to be other differences . in the picture below, the top two are both F160s, one with a small o the other the large O and with both of these the 5 is almost centred over the tooth , also both have a normal length tail to the 9.  Whereas on the F161 [the bottom date of the three] the 5 is centred over the gap between the teeth, and seems to have a  9  with a shorter tail.

964781894_1905threetypsofdate.JPG.4d596a66290c10f8834b11941a9807c2.JPG

Thanks Terry. Valuable knowledge. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look :ph34r:

Thanks.

 

P to a tooth.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look :ph34r:

Thanks.

 

P to a tooth.jpg

As you know, varieties are not my speciality, but I would say P is to a tooth - just to the left of centre on it, which seems to match with the example on the headsntails14 website. First one of date is also directly over a tooth, so I think this makes it Freeman Reverse A?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the P is to a tooth. The narrower rim also confirms reverse A.

Jerry

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look :ph34r:

Thanks.

 

P to a tooth.jpg

I would say P of PENNY to a tooth....

As stated by many, lighting, angle, etc all conspire to confuse....... it's happened many times to me..... sometimes I'll vacillate for days, counting denticles, checking leaves, other key points, etc. And still I might not be overly confident in my final  assessment .

To be perfectly candid, sometimes you can never be sure without the coin in hand. ..

 

Edited by Bronze & Copper Collector
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks gents, much appreciated. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look :ph34r:

Thanks.

 

P to a tooth.jpg

Difficult to say about the pointing, but I can see at a glance that it's the earlier reverse, 1911-1913.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×