Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

ozjohn

Another Wear/Weak Strike Question

Recommended Posts

 This coin is another one I have trouble distinguishing between wear and weak strike. A 1817 bullhead halfcrown. I took a good look at the grading examples in the Rotographic guide to grading coins book and came to the conclusion that my coin is much better that the VF example given in the book.. On the obverse of my coin the top middle laurel leaf has no veins with further weakness in the rim of the ear.  An area above the laurel crown's upper middle leaf seems lower than the leaf and as a result not fully struck. However the King's cheeks and the rest of the face seem free of wear. In general cheeks and eyebrows show the first signs of early wear. On the reverse further weakness close to the buckle of the garter and some of the roses on the rim of the garter are weakly struck while others are fully struck. Weakness is also apparent on the Hanover shield. If this is wear I would grade the coin as gVF+/ aEF and for a weak strike I would grade it EF. My dilemma is. Do I upgrade or live with the coin I have as collecting is always a question of prioritizing and I may be better keeping this coin and investing in a coin that I do not have yet? 

All comments observations etc. are appreciated.2097693850_Obverse(2).jpg.25b75045f014bd9cd87c4a19e9f7801e.jpg

Reverse  (1).jpg

Clipboard.jpg

Edited by ozjohn
Correction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is yours and yours alone. As we all accept, there is no right or wrong way to collect because we are collecting for pleasure. If you can't live with it then get rid and upgrade as funds allow. If you bought it because you were happy at the time, then it is your decision if you are no longer happy, but you have to decide why it is no longer satisfactory. It wouldn't be a problem to upgrade as the coin is hardly rare, so it boils down to your priorities - and on that, the ball is firmly in your court.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I concur.  Nicely put.

 

I would add one thing: in my position, I collect for pleasure, but I would make a profit one day on every coin I have.

I hope!

My pension pot isn't massive, so this sort of thing will help.

I always have 'value' versus 'price' in the back of my head when viewing lots.

 

However, grade versus strike/ beauty  is a minefield. 

 

I replaced my 1903 penny for a better condition one.

I still miss the one I sold- it was one of those that anyone with no knowledge of coins would pick out immediately,

saying how lovely it was.......

Try looking at your collection from that person's perspective.

Surely 'eye appeal' has a value???

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I concur.  Nicely put.

 

I would add one thing: in my position, I collect for pleasure, but I would make a profit one day on every coin I have.

I hope!

My pension pot isn't massive, so this sort of thing will help.

I always have 'value' versus 'price' in the back of my head when viewing lots.

 

However, grade versus strike/ beauty  is a minefield. 

 

I replaced my 1903 penny for a better condition one.

I still miss the one I sold- it was one of those that anyone with no knowledge of coins would pick out immediately,

saying how lovely it was.......

Try looking at your collection from that person's perspective.

Surely 'eye appeal' has a value???

 

 

I personally believe that eye appeal carries more weight than pure grade. A good strike, even toning, issue free specimen in EF will more easily sell than a technically UNC example carrying a poor strike, patchy toning and a carbon spot. 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rob said:

The problem is yours and yours alone. As we all accept, there is no right or wrong way to collect because we are collecting for pleasure. If you can't live with it then get rid and upgrade as funds allow. If you bought it because you were happy at the time, then it is your decision if you are no longer happy, but you have to decide why it is no longer satisfactory. It wouldn't be a problem to upgrade as the coin is hardly rare, so it boils down to your priorities - and on that, the ball is firmly in your court.

The question posed was asking the forum's opinion on whether the coin was  worn through circulation or as the result of a soft strike. I think it's a soft strike myself as the King's face seems to be free of wear. However a second opinion would be nice. As for upgrading that's something to consider at a later date. As it happens even if I up graded it I would probably keep the coin in question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd suggest the wear is from general circulation and handling. The quality of engraving on this particular issue is very good and with the amount of fine detail the design exhibits it will show up any minor wear. 

The highest points centrally appear to be worn which also suggests signs of circulation, however its a nice example and still in a collectable grade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

I'd suggest the wear is from general circulation and handling. The quality of engraving on this particular issue is very good and with the amount of fine detail the design exhibits it will show up any minor wear. 

The highest points centrally appear to be worn which also suggests signs of circulation, however its a nice example and still in a collectable grade.

Thanks, it's always easy to be more forgiving of coins you own.

Edited by ozjohn
More info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmmm - not sure I agree as we did leave out the margins. Many times I look at edge detail to help in deciding points such as this and obverse rom detail is quite good, the reverse not as sharp.  Loss of central detail articulation on reverse is IMO more related to strike . And the fields are really just too good to grade this as any sort of VF. I would venture the EF45 grade based on the pictures. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Paulus bought a superb one from us a while back, that from memory was NGC 63 graded (but removed from Holder)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Nonmortuus said:

My example, graded CGS 50, gVF, as a comparison:

 

img (2).jpg

Thanks for the reply. I notice for your example the laurel crown holds up well but wear is evident on the King's face. Whereas the opposite is true for my example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the example from MH Coins, currently graded PCGS MS64

1817-halfcrown.png

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Nonmortuus said:

My example, graded CGS 50, gVF, as a comparison:

I think a circulated coin generally benefits from having a dark tone as details show up more clearly. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, ozjohn said:

 This coin is another one I have trouble distinguishing between wear and weak strike. A 1817 bullhead halfcrown. I took a good look at the grading examples in the Rotographic guide to grading coins book and came to the conclusion that my coin is much better that the VF example given in the book.. On the obverse of my coin the top middle laurel leaf has no veins with further weakness in the rim of the ear.  An area above the laurel crown's upper middle leaf seems lower than the leaf and as a result not fully struck. However the King's cheeks and the rest of the face seem free of wear. In general cheeks and eyebrows show the first signs of early wear. On the reverse further weakness close to the buckle of the garter and some of the roses on the rim of the garter are weakly struck while others are fully struck. Weakness is also apparent on the Hanover shield. If this is wear I would grade the coin as gVF+/ aEF and for a weak strike I would grade it EF. My dilemma is. Do I upgrade or live with the coin I have as collecting is always a question of prioritizing and I may be better keeping this coin and investing in a coin that I do not have yet? 

All comments observations etc. are appreciated.

I think it is a very presentable coin. If it were mine, I would ask myself the following questions when considering an upgrade:

1) How well does it sit with the rest of my collection? i.e. how does it compare to similar coins I have in term of grade and eye appeal.

2) If it sits well with other coins I have, then I would ask if I particularly like this coin type. If so, I am more likely to consider an upgrade. If not, then I probably won't, as even having a UNC example is not that satisfying in that case.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like your coin, ozjohn, and think I would probably call it GVF or maybe NEF as it appears to have less wear than Non's coin, which I have also previously expressed admiration for.  I agree it has pretty good eye appeal.  

My own example, which I don't think is quite as good as yours, although the strike on the obverse is similar and the reverse is pretty decent too:

VYpGuku.jpg

Edited by Stuntman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ll venture additional opinion - this coin in the OP is very near to uncirculated as far as wear, and this after blowing the coin up - it is nearly free from circulation signs in the devices, fields and rims. Certainly not of the posted MS64 coon’s quality, but very nice. So it IMO would net grade down slightly on tone and soft strike, and that is why I hazarded the EF45 grade.

I do strongly urge others to magnify the coin as I did and not be fooled by the soft strike but to look to see signs of wear such as marks, nicks, gouge in miniature , etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I'm not happy looking at it others won't.There are ugly MS coins out there but some beautiful VF+...the latter for me.

I have just completed my 1895-1970 penny collection @ EF minimum excluding 26 MH the KN & H boys.....those dam nabbit rare freemans  mean it will never be 100%.....a grotty N/F open 1903 doesn't float my boat and won't be pursued.

I confess to throwing a lot of coins....if they are shite just throw em.....I actually enjoy this....I even threw a 1950 penny recently who only the queen mother would of loved.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, VickySilver said:

I’ll venture additional opinion - this coin in the OP is very near to uncirculated as far as wear, and this after blowing the coin up - it is nearly free from circulation signs in the devices, fields and rims. Certainly not of the posted MS64 coon’s quality, but very nice. So it IMO would net grade down slightly on tone and soft strike, and that is why I hazarded the EF45 grade.

I do strongly urge others to magnify the coin as I did and not be fooled by the soft strike but to look to see signs of wear such as marks, nicks, gouge in miniature , etc.

Thanks Vicky.

I would look at the coin and grade it up and then another time down grade it. I just could not make up my mind. I have an 1816 halfcrown as well but that one gEF/UNC is easy to establish. The Reprographics book helped to put it between VF and EF but the micro grade was hard to be certain. I think in the higher grades micrograding becomes more important. This is what IMO makes the Sheldon grading more useful in this area. Others will disagree but there you go it would be a dull world if everybody thought the same.

Regards,

Ozjohn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Peter said:

If I'm not happy looking at it others won't.There are ugly MS coins out there but some beautiful VF+...the latter for me.

I have just completed my 1895-1970 penny collection @ EF minimum excluding 26 MH the KN & H boys.....those dam nabbit rare freemans  mean it will never be 100%.....a grotty N/F open 1903 doesn't float my boat and won't be pursued.

I confess to throwing a lot of coins....if they are shite just throw em.....I actually enjoy this....I even threw a 1950 penny recently who only the queen mother would of loved.

Where do you throw them, Peter? Open the back door and chuck 'em up the garden?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×