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ozjohn

Atlas Numismatics

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Came across this US dealer that may be of interest. Their range of British coins and tokens is impressive although expensive even more so via Ebay .https://atlasnumismatics.com/

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Please don't let me get started on them. Nice coins is as nice as I can say.

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One point in their favour is that they did accept an offer from me once that was substantially below their asking price. It pays to haggle with them.

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Interesting. Thanks for the link.

There's a very reasonably priced EF 1849 penny, albeit slightly damaged, and a gorgeous plain 4 1864 penny - probably the best plain 4 1864, I've seen. Expensive mind, but you wouldn't expect anything different for such a choice item. 

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I have bought from Atlas in the past. They have some very nice coins, shipping is included at least in the USA and their customer service is excellent.

Prices appear high but not always so. When you take into account what the auction price might be, plus the 20% premium, plus shipping, Atlas prices can be reasonable. 

I bought an MS62 1741 sixpence from them in 2016 for $495 at a time when a similar example was being bid on at Heritage and the bidding had gone beyond the Atlas price. An Abt EF 1741 sixpence sold at DNW last year for £440. Add 20% plus shipping you are looking at £540 or $702. 

It's like everything, you have to do your research. How much are you willing to pay? How easy is it to get a similar coin elsewhere? What do fully loaded comparable auction prices look like? How badly do you want the coin?

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On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 2:38 PM, jaggy said:

I have bought from Atlas in the past. They have some very nice coins, shipping is included at least in the USA and their customer service is excellent.

Prices appear high but not always so. When you take into account what the auction price might be, plus the 20% premium, plus shipping, Atlas prices can be reasonable. 

I bought an MS62 1741 sixpence from them in 2016 for $495 at a time when a similar example was being bid on at Heritage and the bidding had gone beyond the Atlas price. An Abt EF 1741 sixpence sold at DNW last year for £440. Add 20% plus shipping you are looking at £540 or $702. 

It's like everything, you have to do your research. How much are you willing to pay? How easy is it to get a similar coin elsewhere? What do fully loaded comparable auction prices look like? How badly do you want the coin?

Agreed, they have some nice coins, though you should be aware that some of their mark-ups can be pretty astronomical. Also, they sometimes get coins re-slabbed at a higher grade from when they bought them, thus semi-justifying a huge mark-up. I'll give you an example:

1841 proof halfpenny PR64 NCG, sold Aug 2018 Heritage Auctions $900 hammer (characteristic spot in front of eyebrow).

Same coin re-slabbed at PR65 by PCGS, on sale by Atlas now at $5950.

That's a >400% increase (including premium on $900 at 20%). Admittedly it may have been cheap from HA, but it's definitely not now, even with a discount! And bear in mind you have the 5% import duty to pay as well if you're UK based.

Maybe I'll give that one a miss.....

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8 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

1841 proof halfpenny PR64 NCG, sold Aug 2018 Heritage Auctions $900 hammer (characteristic spot in front of eyebrow).

Same coin re-slabbed at PR65 by PCGS, on sale by Atlas now at $5950.

Which is why taking any mention of population ranking and totals slabbed should be done with a pinch of salt. As is patently obvious, not all coins are equal, nor indeed is the same coin equal to itself.

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1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

Agreed, they have some nice coins, though you should be aware that some of their mark-ups can be pretty astronomical. Also, they sometimes get coins re-slabbed at a higher grade from when they bought them, thus semi-justifying a huge mark-up. I'll give you an example:

1841 proof halfpenny PR64 NCG, sold Aug 2018 Heritage Auctions $900 hammer (characteristic spot in front of eyebrow).

Same coin re-slabbed at PR65 by PCGS, on sale by Atlas now at $5950.

That's a >400% increase (including premium on $900 at 20%). Admittedly it may have been cheap from HA, but it's definitely not now, even with a discount! And bear in mind you have the 5% import duty to pay as well if you're UK based.

Maybe I'll give that one a miss.....

I don't care how much their mark-up is. That is their business and that is true for any dealer from whom I buy.

I care that the coin is what they say it is, that the photos accurately represent it and that the price is one that I am willing to pay having done my research.

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35 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I don't care how much their mark-up is. That is their business and that is true for any dealer from whom I buy.

I care that the coin is what they say it is, that the photos accurately represent it and that the price is one that I am willing to pay having done my research.

I have always agreed with that approach, I either want the coin and will pay the price asked, or I will not. I have never understood the complaint over mark up, if you can buy something and sell it for more, surely that is good business sense.

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8 minutes ago, Colin G. said:

I have always agreed with that approach, I either want the coin and will pay the price asked, or I will not. I have never understood the complaint over mark up, if you can buy something and sell it for more, surely that is good business sense.

It's the only way you can have a business

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Well

8 minutes ago, Colin G. said:

I have always agreed with that approach, I either want the coin and will pay the price asked, or I will not. I have never understood the complaint over mark up, if you can buy something and sell it for more, surely that is good business sense.

Well, yes, everyone has their mark-up of course! That's how business works.

You may get an idea of what a coin is worth on the open market by the original auction price if you can find it. so unless there's something very special about it that everyone else missed at the original sale, and this does happen sometimes, you may be taking a big punt on assuming your coin will hold its value buying at a big mark-up.

So I personally would feel better paying a 40% mark-up for a coin I wanted than a 450% mark-up. especially about resale. Who wouldn't? The thing is I do my research via auction archives etc especially with slabbed coins, and often find them in their previous incarnation, but perhaps many people don't.

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6 hours ago, oldcopper said:

You may get an idea of what a coin is worth on the open market by the original auction price if you can find it. so unless there's something very special about it that everyone else missed at the original sale, and this does happen sometimes, you may be taking a big punt on assuming your coin will hold its value buying at a big mark-up.

So I personally would feel better paying a 40% mark-up for a coin I wanted than a 450% mark-up. especially about resale. Who wouldn't? The thing is I do my research via auction archives etc especially with slabbed coins, and often find them in their previous incarnation, but perhaps many people don't.

Even then it's not a sure way to proceed. There can be many reasons why some sales do better than others at the same auction house:

- competing sales elsewhere 

- other types of events in the vicinity

- whether there are certain lots that will pull in the punters, or just a so-so catalogue

- even the weather and time of year can affect things 

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It's all relative.

I'm at a point in my collecting where I have relatively few gaps in my main areas of interest. So if Atlas (or any other dealer I trust such as Rob) has a coin that fills one of these gaps, the fact that it may cost a couple of hundred dollars more than it might at auction (and you never know what the auction cost will be) is not necessarily an impediment. 

The reality is that they have it, I don't and I have no idea when an equivalent quality example will come up at auction or what it will cost when it does. 

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Yes........Its like the sixpence that sold at auction in 2009 for just over £4K and a few months after sold for over £100k nobody obviously expected that to happen and everyone had the opportunity to buy it first time round.

Different auction and a different day.........Although a bit of an exception to the rule 😊

Edited by PWA 1967

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The example mentioned is exactly what I DO NOT LIKE ABOUT THEM. I guess it is the American Business Model at its (IMHO) worst. They buy a coin and maybe even a bit higher than it has been going for and then bounce the price by 400, 500% and more to see what they might get away with.

So it is also IMO no concession that they put that OBO business at the end of the sale, some consolation.

I certainly appreciate where Jaggy is and that he has gotten a piece or two, but I really don't like the bulldoze "GreedMo' " approach as it in the end despoils the market. I am most glad that I got many of the very best coins that I have before this sort of thing got into the market. I can see how this may fragment the market eventually if this approach is expanded on by others - and I see it occurring (eg the prices on proof Victoria gold and now "hyper grades" bringing hyper prices).

 

This is not sour grapes either, so should not be dismissed as such; there certainly are times that I could have secured another piece or two and pinched the market but just don't believe in that approach as this is a hobby for many of us, and nice to have fellow collectors out there.

This is the sort of thing that is now applied to more classic Brit issues that we have seen first with the flippers that purchase the "limited edition" issues (and now has seemingly spread to the RM and the Garufulos (sp?) and other tat they now issue that has extended the "GreedMo' " mentality. Well, sorry to run on.

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Buying the slab and not the coin seems to be the US way although fervently denied.

Atlas are purely tapping this and why not? Large nrs of individual collectors try the regrade path to riches and really is it not similar to variety collectors cherry picking ebay/coin fairs.

I ask the question;

Who hasn't bought a duplicate coin to flip for a profit?

 

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59 minutes ago, Peter said:

Buying the slab and not the coin seems to be the US way although fervently denied.

Atlas are purely tapping this and why not? Large nrs of individual collectors try the regrade path to riches and really is it not similar to variety collectors cherry picking ebay/coin fairs.

I ask the question;

Who hasn't bought a duplicate coin to flip for a profit?

 

I haven't. I have sold a total of eight coins in the 35 or so years I have been collecting. My duplicates generally come from buying a better quality coin for my collection and the duplicates are still sitting in my trays. Sometimes I have bought a duplicate because I like the coin and I like the price (which is why I have 35 1952 sixpences). I have never bought a coin with the intention of selling it subsequently.

At some point I am probably need to clear out my duplicates. When? I have no idea. Maybe never.

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Hey, keep us posted Jag! I am with you, it is only if I am going to trade for something that I get up off even the doubles....

 

I think, dear Peter, that there might just be such a thing as moderation and sometimes it just plain exceeds that [by a LOT]. 

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19 hours ago, VickySilver said:

The example mentioned is exactly what I DO NOT LIKE ABOUT THEM. I guess it is the American Business Model at its (IMHO) worst. They buy a coin and maybe even a bit higher than it has been going for and then bounce the price by 400, 500% and more to see what they might get away with.

So it is also IMO no concession that they put that OBO business at the end of the sale, some consolation.

I certainly appreciate where Jaggy is and that he has gotten a piece or two, but I really don't like the bulldoze "GreedMo' " approach as it in the end despoils the market. I am most glad that I got many of the very best coins that I have before this sort of thing got into the market. I can see how this may fragment the market eventually if this approach is expanded on by others - and I see it occurring (eg the prices on proof Victoria gold and now "hyper grades" bringing hyper prices).

 

This is not sour grapes either, so should not be dismissed as such; there certainly are times that I could have secured another piece or two and pinched the market but just don't believe in that approach as this is a hobby for many of us, and nice to have fellow collectors out there.

This is the sort of thing that is now applied to more classic Brit issues that we have seen first with the flippers that purchase the "limited edition" issues (and now has seemingly spread to the RM and the Garufulos (sp?) and other tat they now issue that has extended the "GreedMo' " mentality. Well, sorry to run on.

I can see your point, but if you have a pile of anything that has rocketed in price for _any_ reason you have gained enormously

from business practices that you feel are a 'bit sharp'. The same has happened in my field of old audio/studio gear.

My stash of old gear went up in value more than I earned last year, because of crazy dealer markups such as above.

However, would I follow the 'sales weasel' approach of some audio dealers?

No.  

 I like my customers to like me, AND pay my bills. but that's just me.

It depends on your level of psychopathy.

Many of my customers are now good friends and still dealing with me after 30 years etc.

Does this still make  'sharp' dealers 'wrong'?

 

Difficult.....

 

 

 

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On 4/3/2019 at 6:19 AM, Peter said:

Buying the slab and not the coin seems to be the US way although fervently denied.

Atlas are purely tapping this and why not? Large nrs of individual collectors try the regrade path to riches and really is it not similar to variety collectors cherry picking ebay/coin fairs.

I ask the question;

Who hasn't bought a duplicate coin to flip for a profit?

 

I haven't done so far, but would do so if the ideal opportunity arose.

As far as slabbing and slabbed coins, I buy the coin. If it comes slabbed I smash the slab open and free the coin. It's a shame that you have to pay a premium for the slab, but if you want the coin then you have to accept that.  

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On 4/3/2019 at 3:03 AM, VickySilver said:

The example mentioned is exactly what I DO NOT LIKE ABOUT THEM. I guess it is the American Business Model at its (IMHO) worst. They buy a coin and maybe even a bit higher than it has been going for and then bounce the price by 400, 500% and more to see what they might get away with.

So it is also IMO no concession that they put that OBO business at the end of the sale, some consolation.

I certainly appreciate where Jaggy is and that he has gotten a piece or two, but I really don't like the bulldoze "GreedMo' " approach as it in the end despoils the market. I am most glad that I got many of the very best coins that I have before this sort of thing got into the market. I can see how this may fragment the market eventually if this approach is expanded on by others - and I see it occurring (eg the prices on proof Victoria gold and now "hyper grades" bringing hyper prices).

 

This is not sour grapes either, so should not be dismissed as such; there certainly are times that I could have secured another piece or two and pinched the market but just don't believe in that approach as this is a hobby for many of us, and nice to have fellow collectors out there.

This is the sort of thing that is now applied to more classic Brit issues that we have seen first with the flippers that purchase the "limited edition" issues (and now has seemingly spread to the RM and the Garufulos (sp?) and other tat they now issue that has extended the "GreedMo' " mentality. Well, sorry to run on.

...and yet they have items on there which are - in my opinion at any rate - quite reasonably priced. Also, they are open to offers, which is sound business practice, especially for coins which aren't shifting...  

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10 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I can see your point, but if you have a pile of anything that has rocketed in price for _any_ reason you have gained enormously

from business practices that you feel are a 'bit sharp'. The same has happened in my field of old audio/studio gear.

My stash of old gear went up in value more than I earned last year, because of crazy dealer markups such as above.

However, would I follow the 'sales weasel' approach of some audio dealers?

No.  

 I like my customers to like me, AND pay my bills. but that's just me.

It depends on your level of psychopathy.

Many of my customers are now good friends and still dealing with me after 30 years etc.

Does this still make  'sharp' dealers 'wrong'?

 

Difficult.....

 

 

 

Absolutely. There are so many shades of grey. Far more than 40 in fact. 

On the one hand, if you are in business, it would be insanity not to take advantage of major price rises. On the other you don't want to alienate your customers through transparently obvious sharp practice. So it's a matter of flexibility. Recognising market movements, but also not unreasonably inflating your prices to rip off levels. Not deliberately trying to take advantage of newbie collectors and so forth. Not lying about a variety or exaggerating a grade.

If it was me, I might be open to offers, free with technical advice or pointing in the right direction if I didn't know, and maybe throw in the odd freebie extra now and again, especially for long standing customers. 

Like you, I'd want my customers to see me as a friend, as much as a trading contact.  

At the end of the day though, honesty and integrity aces all.  

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