Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

1949threepence

1913 penny - Freeman 175 & 176

Recommended Posts

Not easy to get, so if anybody can point me in the right direction, I'd be very grateful.

Thanks. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You might try Croydon Coin Auctions? They do have a reputation for dealing with bronze varieties. Their last sale http://www.croydoncoinauctions.co.uk/Catalogue/00_CURRENTCAT.pdf didn't feature either (only F177)  but if you look back at previous sales maybe you'll see if they have sold them before? Unfortunately they don't have a search facility for auctions which would be a real boon.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

You might try Croydon Coin Auctions? They do have a reputation for dealing with bronze varieties. Their last sale http://www.croydoncoinauctions.co.uk/Catalogue/00_CURRENTCAT.pdf didn't feature either (only F177)  but if you look back at previous sales maybe you'll see if they have sold them before? Unfortunately they don't have a search facility for auctions which would be a real boon.

Thanks Chris. They're not easy to find. However, I've made a note in my calendar to check the next CCA on 15th April. I see the next auction is 26th April. 

Looking at LCA, they've only had two decent 175 specimens in 14 years (one in 2016 and one in 2017), although a few more 176's. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pleased to say, got one of them at least, a F175. Not the most scintillating looking specimen in the world, as a bit dirty in places. But about GEF with residual lustre.

Managed to get it for just £50 flat from David Craddock. Actually, there's a bit of a back story behind this as I'd e mailed David to ask for the 175 and two others off his list. Then in the meantime I discovered that Pete @PWA 1967 had also asked to buy the 175, ahead of my request. As I'd not heard anything back from David, I decided to call him to confirm whether the other two coins were still available. It was then - incredibly - that he told me that he'd already packed up all three coins ready to send to me. It turned out that he'd bought two F175's at York Coin Fair last month. So Pete's got one, and I've got the other.

     

F175 rev.jpg

F175 obv.jpg

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've now managed to obtain a 176 as well. Not much of a one to be honest, only straight fine. But purchased from topcarp1 (Stephen/John Jerrams), whose remarks about the coins he sells, are always well worth a read. This is what he said about this particular sale:-

Quote

 Hello - You are viewing a Bronze Penny of George V dated 1913 - However, this is the rare Freeman 176 type -  ie. Wider Date with the smaller gap between the  A:B  to the Obverse.....this F176 has always been rare but it really does seem to have all but vanished in recent times !?  -  this is a collectable example with a pleasing overall appearance for the grade -  it is interesting to note that the wide date has fewer teeth under the date than for the narrow date !  - something that can sometimes catch collectors out  -  F175 is almost as rare and has also become more elusive than in previous times -  Lustrous UNC examples are truly very rare re both types but especially F176.....Please see our 100% positive feed-backs  -  Returns are gladly accepted - Have enjoyed Numismatics for many a year - Thank-you -

He's absolutely right, of course. Despite Freeman's rarity listing as N and R for the 175 and 176 respectively, I think they are much scarcer than that. This 176 will do until (and if) a better one becomes available, and I can get it.

 

penny F176 rev.jpg

penny F176 obv.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been looking for a while now Mike, and have only found one washer so far:

1913 F176 (3).jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Court's survey suggests that they should account for about 1.4% of the population, but finding them even in low grade is surprisingly hard.

1913 Court.JPG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I begin to understand why this one created so much comment when it turned up in my date run!

 

1913 D F176 3 Red.JPG

1913 D F176 4 Red.JPG

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main thing is to know what to look for as  most auction houses / dealers dont bother and just rely on the people they have got them off and even when they are listed not always correct. 

There will be some in collectors trays who probably dont even know they have one 

A good example of this was the two that Dave craddock (mentioned above) had as he bought twelve 1913 pennies in a bag and two were F175.

A decent one that sold on ebay recently by a dealer had been bought from auction and neither had checked and was also a F175.

One i had was off a forum member  who had bought a mixed lot of a few high grade pennies in auction and one was a F175

Yes much scarcer but worth looking and not just on ebay.

This also possibly shows IMO amongst others i have found or know about ........ F176 is the scarcer of the two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

F176 is the scarcer of the two.

I check all the 1913s that I see that are unattributed, and over the last ten years or so have kept a tally of them, its   

5 - 175s  to   2 - 176s  so far, and that's at all grades   .   just found another 175,  so 6

Edited by terrysoldpennies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

The main thing is to know what to look for...

You're not wrong. And I need my eyes tested, mine's a F174. :wacko:

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The main thing is to know what to look for as  most auction houses / dealers dont bother and just rely on the people they have got them off and even when they are listed not always correct. 

There will be some in collectors trays who probably dont even know they have one 

A good example of this was the two that Dave craddock (mentioned above) had as he bought twelve 1913 pennies in a bag and two were F175.

A decent one that sold on ebay recently by a dealer had been bought from auction and neither had checked and was also a F175.

One i had was off a forum member  who had bought a mixed lot of a few high grade pennies in auction and one was a F175

Yes much scarcer but worth looking and not just on ebay.

This also possibly shows IMO amongst others i have found or know about ........ F176 is the scarcer of the two.

Very true, Pete. In fact some dealers (Rendel Ingram) don't have a clue what they are, just list as say 1908 or 1913, and when asked what Freeman types they are, send you a pic for you to work out.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

I've been looking for a while now Mike, and have only found one washer so far:

1913 F176 (3).jpg

I must admit Jon, I've looked at pretty much all the unattributed 1913's on e bay over the last few months, and not one of them has been a 175 or 176. The one I did get was attributed, as described. It's quite a painstaking task, as many of them are quite worn, or the photography is poor. So it's difficult to tell eitherway.  

Didn't notice with yours until you pointed it out, as I couldn't see the border teeth below the 1 of the date. Although looking again it's obviously it's the wrong obverse for a 176.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Paddy said:

I begin to understand why this one created so much comment when it turned up in my date run!

 

1913 D F176 3 Red.JPG

1913 D F176 4 Red.JPG

Beauty !!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

I must admit Jon, I've looked at pretty much all the unattributed 1913's on e bay over the last few months, and not one of them has been a 175 or 176. The one I did get was attributed, as described. It's quite a painstaking task, as many of them are quite worn, or the photography is poor. So it's difficult to tell eitherway.  

Didn't notice with yours until you pointed it out, as I couldn't see the border teeth below the 1 of the date. Although looking again it's obviously it's the wrong obverse for a 176.   

I can't believe I've had it in hand and didn't notice until I took a photo of it. :rolleyes:

I've probably looked at every ebay picture you have...and I've got to start again now! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

I can't believe I've had it in hand and didn't notice until I took a photo of it. :rolleyes:

I've probably looked at every ebay picture you have...and I've got to start again now! :lol:

It's incredibly easy to make a mistake with attribution. You can stare and stare at a given coin and come up with different conclusions every time you look. 

If you Google 1908 pennies, and look at the LCA result for that, you'll see many, many misattributions for that year. Pennies passed as either F164 or F165, when they're actually 166. Although making a mistake with the 164, is pretty bad judgement, as that one is very obviously different.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes your right Mike as i had noticed those and have seen the same in other auctions , also had two F164 that are scarce posted to me from different dealers without pictures that were not.

Ages ago when i started looking at them closely i realised that the F164 and F165 are much scarcer than the common F166 ,so much so that i found it much easier to look at the reverse first as if it wasnt REV D it was worth looking at the obverse.

Talking to Jon a few months ago about the number of 1908 / 1913 pennies wrongly attributed he said "i think i will just call mine what i want as everyone else does " 😂

Why you have decided thats what your doing Jon as with the one above then atleast use a good one 😛

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

He's absolutely right, of course. Despite Freeman's rarity listing as N and R for the 175 and 176 respectively, I think they are much scarcer than that. This 176 will do until (and if) a better one becomes available, and I can get it.

 

8 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

Court's survey suggests that they should account for about 1.4% of the population, but finding them even in low grade is surprisingly hard.

I'm guessing a lot were melted in 1971 as they were not generally known as a 'key date' variety back then. High grade examples would have been rare even then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

 

I'm guessing a lot were melted in 1971 as they were not generally known as a 'key date' variety back then. High grade examples would have been rare even then.

Exactly what I thought, Chris. Indeed, I'm not sure they're known as a key date variety even now. Although, they absolutely are. 

Underrated. Maybe the rarity No Freeman accorded to them means they're somewhat overlooked. Even those high grade 176's sold at LCA didn't go for very much in the grand scheme of things. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the 176 is rarer than the 164a and its grossly under rated both in desirability and value, that doesn't seem though to be uncommon with pennies.   just look on LCA and you will only find  2 - 176 mules and yet as you say at very modest prices even for top grade examples. on the other hand there's  7 - 1877 narrow date pennies with an average price 3K even for date only examples. ?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes when you start looking there are not many F176 although there is more than two sold at LCA.

The Copthorne one i am sure is one of the ones sold at LCA and the Frank Stephenson one was from the Andy scott sale.... the Workman one is wrongly attributed.

Although the F164a i think people have decided if they want one to settle for a low grade and the F176 maybe people will only look for a decent one .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

I think the 176 is rarer than the 164a and its grossly under rated both in desirability and value, that doesn't seem though to be uncommon with pennies.   just look on LCA and you will only find  2 - 176 mules and yet as you say at very modest prices even for top grade examples. on the other hand there's  7 - 1877 narrow date pennies with an average price 3K even for date only examples. ?

Absolutely Terry - and of the F90 examples shown on Richard's rarest penny site, not one is above fine. 

8 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes when you start looking there are not many F176 although there is more than two sold at LCA.

The Copthorne one i am sure is one of the ones sold at LCA and the Frank Stephenson one was from the Andy scott sale.... the Workman one is wrongly attributed.

Although the F164a i think people have decided if they want one to settle for a low grade and the F176 maybe people will only look for a decent one .

As you say the Workman one, touted as a 176, went for £200, but is in fact a 174. 

The Copthorne specimen, which is uncirculated and very nice, only fetched £260.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Copthorne one Mike i think would of needed to be seen in hand.I am pretty sure its LCA Lot 2210 GEF £150 +.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×