1860 pattern penny by moore

[will1976 231]

Beyond my price range at the moment but thought others might be interested in something a 'bit different' https://www.cooperscoins.com/collections/new-listings/products/victoria-1860-pattern-copper-penny-by-joseph-moore-bmc-2101-a-unc

[Rob 3,000]

Pity it has been dropped at some point, o/w I might have been interested.

[will1976 231]

39 minutes ago, Rob said:

Pity it has been dropped at some point, o/w I might have been interested.

Yes above the second 'E' of queen, I hadn't noticed until I looked again. How rare are these?

[1949threepence 3,366]

29 minutes ago, will1976 said:

Yes above the second 'E' of queen, I hadn't noticed until I looked again. How rare are these?

I see it's noted as a Freeman 827, and he has them as R16 (51 to 100 specimens believed to exist).

That's from page 190 of his book "The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain" - 1985 edition. 

[VickySilver 775]

I just haven't been able to love these private patterns, but more power to those that do.

 

[Rob 3,000]

17 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

I just haven't been able to love these private patterns, but more power to those that do.

 

They are just another section of the rich panoply of numismatics and as such are eminently collectable.

Collect too narrowly and you miss out on the eclectic and frequently interesting. Dies, trials, proofs, patterns, errors, off-metal strikes..........

[VickySilver 775]

LOL, yes you are right there; I have gone after RM proofs and patterns where I could afford them & OMS circulation strikes (ie 20th C.) which have in many cases rather increased in value also.

[Peckris 2 2,043]

57 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

I just haven't been able to love these private patterns, but more power to those that do.

I'm not that keen on the Moore patterns - I don't think they are anywhere near the quality of the late 18th Century copper patterns.

[blakeyboy 1,601]

Can anyone help explain to me why these pattern were made?

They must have cost a bomb to produce then, so why make them?

Were they made with any connection to the Mint, or were producers of them hoping the Mint would like the design and take up production for a fee?

[Rob 3,000]

Birmingham had many businesses producing medals, buttons and tokens from the start of the industrial revolution, and the number of 18th counterfeit halfpennies indicates the skill set was there long before Boulton & Watt set up the Soho mint. Coins are simply an extension of this list because the manufacturing processes are pretty much the same for all. If you are in business, the opportunity to get a design accepted for a national coinage is something to be explored and exploited if possible. So, yes they were made with a view to putting them forward as a prospective currency design, but were not produced in complete isolation.

In the case of Joseph Moore's work, the laureate bust punch (see below) was used on his 1860 patterns and also for colonial issues such as the Auckland Licensed Victuallers Association penny token from New Zealand of which 4 varieties are noted in Krause (ref. Tn6).

The rust spots are as the die was found in 1886, prior to subsequent polishing down by Shorthouse for the restrikes and do not feature on any original Moore strikings. cf Peck p.483-490

Edited January 30, 2019 by Rob

[secret santa 2,013]

5 hours ago, Rob said:

The rust spots are as the die was found in 1886, prior to subsequent polishing down by Shorthouse for the restrikes and do not feature on any original Moore strikings. cf Peck p.483-490

And take a look at the Victoria Unofficial Patterns section of my varieties website for more information.

[Rob 3,000]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

And take a look at the Victoria Unofficial Patterns section of my varieties website for more information.

The Moore section is ok, but the Weyl bit needs revising. Use the 2011 BNJ article as a reference.

[secret santa 2,013]

8 hours ago, Rob said:

Use the 2011 BNJ article as a reference.

Can you provide a link please.

[Rob 3,000]

14 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Can you provide a link please.

https://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital BNJ/pdfs/2011_BNJ_81_7.pdf

PM me with your address and you can have an offprint.

[secret santa 2,013]

I'm printing it off right now - are you R J Pearce by any chance ?

[Rob 3,000]

Yes.

You can also add another reference to the list. H W Cholmley 234 (Sotheby 26th May 1902) was listed as a 1887 plain edge penny in the copper and bronze section, but whether bronzed or copper wasn't specified. As this was only a month or so before Murdoch's death, it doesn't eliminate the Murdoch coin being the same example, but does strongly imply that these were not made to order by Murdoch as has been suggested in the past.

[secret santa 2,013]

Many thanks for this information, Rob - are you OK with me adding some summarised details to my website ?

[Rob 3,000]

Yes, if you want. The info is in the public domain, so I don't have a problem. People can't be educated if info is kept closely guarded.

[blakeyboy 1,601]

Oh wow- thanks for all this, guys.

So money was being made making tokens, which funded trials for the new bronze official coinage?

Did the Mint take up any of the ideas- I mean, that laureate head- did Moore come up with design before Wyon?

[Rob 3,000]

Birmingham had a number of engravers and medallists during the period in question. The quantity of non-coin items struck must have been significant, as witnessed by the numerous temperance, communion, club awards and otherwise general commemorative medals, tokens and medallions known. Individual quantities may have been small, but the overall total will have provided a living for many people