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So, Brexit....What's happening?

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I am beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing this thread regarding such a divisive subject, particularly as the issue seems set to drag on for months if not years, and not just in the context of my spat with Peckris, but of many other heated posts over the months. This is a coin forum,  yet this thread is setting member against member, and there is of course no particular right answer, only opinion , which is often unedifying.

What say you all?

Jerry

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18 hours ago, Gary D said:

Colin G said " Surely true democracy is being given a choice by representatives and then those representatives delivering the choice that received the majority of votes. "

We do not have a house of representatives here in the UK. It's government that makes the laws, parliment only supplies oversite.

I wasn't talking about the UK democracy system, the discussion was about "true" democracy. I was highlighting the fact that once your chosen representative has proposed a choice of options, and one of those options has commanded a majority vote by the electorate that it should be acted upon. Regardless of what system is in place, that is the surely the true definition of democracy 🤷‍♂️

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35 minutes ago, jelida said:

What say you all?

If the subject to deemed to be off limits, I'll abide by that decision.

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This has become the thread that I turn to first every day and I'd be sad to see the end of it (unless Theresa gets a one years extension) so can't we just respect our differences ? After all, it's only mirroring the country.

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14 minutes ago, secret santa said:

This has become the thread that I turn to first every day and I'd be sad to see the end of it (unless Theresa gets a one years extension) 

It is the same for me, but the prolongation that seems inevitable does increase the opportunity for things to get out of hand and perhaps a bit too bitter. I agree that tolerating and respecting our differences is essential, but there  have been a number of heated exchanges over the months (years?) and I hope these don’t threaten the integrity of the forum as a whole. It has been absorbing (in a horror movie sort of way) watching the parliamentary process progress- or not - but in this forum,  where we should be pulling together in our love of numismatics, I do worry that we are learning a bit too much about each other and getting a bit too emotional for comfort.

Jerry

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1 minute ago, jelida said:

It is the same for me, but the prolongation that seems inevitable does increase the opportunity for things to get out of hand and perhaps a bit too bitter. I agree that tolerating and respecting our differences is essential, but there  have been a number of heated exchanges over the months (years?) and I hope these don’t threaten the integrity of the forum as a whole. It has been absorbing (in a horror movie sort of way) watching the parliamentary process progress- or not - but in this forum,  where we should be pulling together in our love of numismatics, I do worry that we are learning a bit too much about each other and getting a bit too emotional for comfort.

Jerry

I think you may be right Jerry. At any rate, I think I might keep out of it from now on. At least until something definite begins to happen. 

Can I just say, if I've had any disagreements with anybody, I don't think they've been too sharp, and it's definitely nothing personal. I like and respect everybody on here. If we were meeting in real life, we'd have a bit of a discussion about it, say how racked off we were with the entire thing, then have a drink and a laugh, and talk about coins or something else. Face to face never seems to get as personalised as it does in writing on a forum.    

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Posted (edited)

In real life, many of us don't like arguments and a discussion on Brexit with someone "on the dark other side" probably won't be more than an exchange of a few mild sentences.  Then you would agree to disagree. Only with friends of the same side would you talk about it longer. Strangely, things are different on a forum.

Can I suggest we move this tread to Members Only? Let's not put off new members.

Edited by Sword

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Posted (edited)

It's all good fun. People take things too personally. I've had several heated discussions with my eldest who is diametrically opposed to me both politically and on Brexit. But at the end of the day, he's my son, I'm his father and we still get on ok in just about every other aspect of life. You have to be given a voice if you disagree, irrespective of where you are coming from. Echo chambers are a bit like a chocolate teapot.

Edited by Rob
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I agree with Rob, debate is a wonderful part of our society and in many ways a great route for education. I do not always assume I am correct and therefore value other peoples opinions in case they convince me that I need to change my view on something

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I recently had a visit from my niece who is a doctor in New Zealand and as it happens she supports remaining in the EU where I hold the opposite view. My niece's answer to that was " of course you are old" . I seems to be the way if you disagree instead of an argue on the merits or otherwise insult your opponent a la Trump voters by the liberals . The other one that seems to figure in the Brexit debate is the leavers were too stupid to understand the issues when while the liberal remainders due to their superior intellects voted to stay.

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3 minutes ago, ozjohn said:

I recently had a visit from my niece who is a doctor in New Zealand and as it happens she supports remaining in the EU where I hold the opposite view. My niece's answer to that was " of course you are old" . I seems to be the way if you disagree instead of an argue on the merits or otherwise insult your opponent a la Trump voters by the liberals . The other one that seems to figure in the Brexit debate is the leavers were too stupid to understand the issues when while the liberal remainders due to their superior intellects voted to stay.

Although the argument of some. it doesn't hold true when seeing regional interviews on early morning News programmes, there seems a equal divide, older voters wishing to remain and younger voters wishing to Leave

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1 hour ago, Chingford said:

Although the argument of some. it doesn't hold true when seeing regional interviews on early morning News programmes, there seems a equal divide, older voters wishing to remain and younger voters wishing to Leave

The entire argument is nonsensical. The majority of young people from working class areas voted to leave, whereas older voters from middle class areas often voted to remain. 

If every young person under say 25, had voted to remain, and every older person over 60 had voted to leave, then the argument would make more logical sense. 

I think the argument is based on London, which is different from everywhere else. 

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520581837_30thjune-Copy-Copy-Copy.jpg.7fae6e9eb9548dd3d41e3194f078995a.jpg

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54685866_Maywalkingdead-Copy.jpg.75e2bf92bfd5d1266117f7a6994e28e7.jpg

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On 4/11/2019 at 9:03 PM, ozjohn said:

I recently had a visit from my niece who is a doctor in New Zealand and as it happens she supports remaining in the EU where I hold the opposite view. My niece's answer to that was " of course you are old" . I seems to be the way if you disagree instead of an argue on the merits or otherwise insult your opponent a la Trump voters by the liberals . The other one that seems to figure in the Brexit debate is the leavers were too stupid to understand the issues when while the liberal remainders due to their superior intellects voted to stay.

This is typical of the c**p that goes around. Straight from my sister's Facebook  posts. Typical propaganda ploy to belittle your opponents by branding them as stupid 

IMG_4606.jpg

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To be fair though, isn't that what most media outlets are doing these days? In fact in the run up to the referendum and ever since there has been a very obvious policy of what I like to think of as 'erosion', keep wearing away at people by telling them it is doomed and the voters were misguided and misinformed and if a referendum was to be held again then remain would have a clear victory (which is what they said the last time!). I have to ask, as a former student of history, where is the source or what is their motive? To what end does staying in the EU benefit them, it obviously does otherwise why would they spend so long trying to feather their beds?

Contrarily to the media's portrayal though of it as going against sanity and the wishes of the people. I have to say when they do ask the person in the street in the leave vote areas, the message I keep hearing is that many still want to leave, and same pattern in the remain areas, they still want to remain. I'm not really sure anything has actually changed, only the media's policy of mind-altering keeps on going. It's all very 1984.

My biggest gripe of all though, is that they fail to realise that many of us (regardless of which side you fall on) already had a clear and conceived viewpoint and knew which way we were going to vote long before the campaigning ever began.

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14 hours ago, ozjohn said:

This is typical of the c**p that goes around. Straight from my sister's Facebook  posts. Typical propaganda ploy to belittle your opponents by branding them as stupid 

IMG_4606.jpg

But paradoxically, such a manifestly idiotic statement just reflects back on the intellect of the writer.  

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And the people who spread this stuff.

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694218487_1-Copy(2).jpg.8af51ae4fe8e159ca50cf01898dc55e5.jpg

From The Telegraph.

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Just seen this- apologies if it's been seen before.

Her speech does have some very interesting angles on the German perspective.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM

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Well, an emotional TM as she announced her resignation this morning, but a new PM, whoever that maybe, changes nothing. The parliamentary arithmetic will still be the same, and the EU have said they won't re-open the deal for re-negotiation. Surely the sensible default position for any new PM is to assume that in the absence of parliamentary agreement for accepting the deal, we leave down the WTO route on 31st October, and leave the ball solidly in the court of parliament to come up with any number of indicative votes they choose - for which the no's will most likely still have it.......their call. 

If it's Johnson - and it's more probable than not it will be - there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of a further referendum   

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5 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Surely the sensible default position for any new PM is to assume that in the absence of parliamentary agreement for accepting the deal, we leave down the WTO route on 31st October, and leave the ball solidly in the court of parliament to come up with any number of indicative votes they choose - for which the no's will most likely still have it.......their call.

The problem is that with Labour rebranding itself as a Remain party, the ultra remainers in the Conservative party will see collapsing the government as a means to an end.

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I'm not convinced the government falling would mean an automatic win for Corbyn. I would give the population, who are coming to realise that he wants Brexit as much as Johnson, more credit than that.

As a lifelong opponent of Brussels, I suspect a lot of converts to him over the past 3 years might not be so happy once they realise he doesn't share their goals. Many older voters without party allegiances to consider will not support him due to his and much of the left's opposition to the creation of private wealth in the first place. As always, it is easy to be in opposition but much harder to be in power.

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Corbyn seems to be pursuing  policies even more left of Labor in Australia who were defeated at last Saturday's general election even after all of the polls predicting their victory.  I suspect the same will happen in the UK if the Tories deliver Brexit (renegotiated - unlikely given the EU's position)  or a hard exit. I suspect the Tory party will change their tune on this issue  when facing  a electoral wipeout  with the rise of the Brexit Party under Farage.

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With respect to the EU elections the Tories might start taking notice of the people they "serve". The people voted for out at the referendum so another one of those is unnecessary in any case on the EU results would only produce the same result and would only provide ammunition for Stoddard's obsession for Scottish independence. As for the  Ireland border this is surely a matter of the respective governments not the EU  and is more motivated by the Irish Republic's territorial ambitions for the unification of Ireland than any regard for the peace agreements. which would have probably happened much earlier if the Irish government had supported them earlier rather than letting the issues fester to support their ambitions for a united Ireland.

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