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So, Brexit....What's happening?

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25 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I hope they do - clean break divorce. Bumpy road at first, but we'll get over it. 

The EU will need all 27 to agree, France have already made clear it would not.

It is an unfortunate conclusion, all motions have been tabled and none are acceptable to a majority, these options included a referendum, remaining, Corbyns ideal and other alternative customs union etc..

The way forward now would be a clean break no deal scenario, that would be the shot up the arse reality check that both Parliament and the EU need to sit down and get a deal done.

 

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Just heard on the news that Parliament will once again take control on Monday, most appropriate considering it will be the First of April, All Fools Day.

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3 minutes ago, Chingford said:

Just heard on the news that Parliament will once again take control on Monday, most appropriate considering it will be the First of April, All Fools Day.

And every other day is Groundhog Day.

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The problem is completely the fault of a government that cannot accept the results of a referendum they commissioned. Now they are trying every method to frustrate Brexit even suggesting a second referendum. Who knows what the outcome of that will be?. What I do know is it will stir up the Scotland independence issue again. I saw the Scotland First Minister exploiting the remain demo last week. If you go down that road you are likely to end up with two hard borders instead of one with Brexit

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Personally, I think most people would accept either Norway or Norway+ (i.e. with a customs union, or at least arrangement). After all, no-one was objecting to that during the referendum campaign, indeed Farage was positively waxing lyrical about Norway at one point.

I think it would command a majority in Parliament, and among the >66% of the voters who are either Remain or who want out but are not hardline. Theresa May can pretend all she likes that it doesn't deliver what people voted for, but actually they just voted to Leave, and a Norway option would be least harmful to the economy.

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Posted (edited)

Unfortunately Norway means no input to the EU workings but having to abide by them which is worse than the UK's present situation with the EU.. I think the only viable options are leave with no deal or crawl back to the EU with your tail between your legs and tell them it was all a big mistake. Seems to me the government is not prepared at present to entertain either. However in the end they will have it forced to make a decision and along with the political fallout. It's also likely that the EU will force their hand.

 

PS I'm wearing my Mr. Grumpy shirt.

Edited by ozjohn

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59 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Personally, I think most people would accept either Norway or Norway+ (i.e. with a customs union, or at least arrangement). After all, no-one was objecting to that during the referendum campaign, indeed Farage was positively waxing lyrical about Norway at one point.

I think it would command a majority in Parliament, and among the >66% of the voters who are either Remain or who want out but are not hardline. Theresa May can pretend all she likes that it doesn't deliver what people voted for, but actually they just voted to Leave, and a Norway option would be least harmful to the economy.

A Norway Option was in the 8 options selected last week, all received No Votes

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1 hour ago, ozjohn said:

The problem is completely the fault of a government that cannot accept the results of a referendum they commissioned. Now they are trying every method to frustrate Brexit even suggesting a second referendum. Who knows what the outcome of that will be?. What I do know is it will stir up the Scotland independence issue again. I saw the Scotland First Minister exploiting the remain demo last week. If you go down that road you are likely to end up with two hard borders instead of one with Brexit

Although I believe the union of the four countries should remain, there is a degree of resentment at the way Scotland receives a disproportionately large sum of public funding through the terms of the Barnett Formula. Put the question of Scotland's place in the UK to a national vote and the SNP might be pleasantly surprised at the support they receive from the North of England. In a finite pot of spending money, anyone region with a larger handout has to be balanced by an area with lower public support - the North of England.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Chingford said:

The EU will need all 27 to agree, France have already made clear it would not.

It is an unfortunate conclusion, all motions have been tabled and none are acceptable to a majority, these options included a referendum, remaining, Corbyns ideal and other alternative customs union etc..

The way forward now would be a clean break no deal scenario, that would be the shot up the arse reality check that both Parliament and the EU need to sit down and get a deal done.

 

To be honest I'm so irritated by the arrogant way parliament have behaved over this matter, I'm really beginning to hope that the EU reject any further extension, and that we're left with either immediate acceptance of the deal, or immediate revocation of article 50 - and zero further time to decide. If no acceptance or revocation by 23:59 our time on 12th April, then that's it, we're out for good. Final and absolute deadline. I think I'm very far from alone in this view.  

I know if I was them, that's what I'd do. "Your call UK, we can't go on pussyfooting round you forever."

Edited by 1949threepence
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A photo of Saturday's Australian Newspaper which is circulated through out the Commonwealth. I think it demonstrates that the Brexit issue is closely followed with interest in Australia. In fact I do not think Australia has ever forgiven  the UK for joining the EU. It has to be said the ABC our national radio/TV service is towing the BBC anti Brexit rhetoric.

DSC01600.JPG

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The trouble is nothing will be better than the Germany + which we already enjoy. At least the EU can get 27 governments to agree whereas we can even get one.

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12 hours ago, Chingford said:

A Norway Option was in the 8 options selected last week, all received No Votes

Not quite. They all lost, but every option got some votes. Anyway, that was just a beginning : I think Labour would probably end up supporting Norway + now that May's deal has failed (for good? how many votes does she want?? she's already lost "best of 5"!!!) and if the DUP also decide to go that way, then the ERG + a few Labour rebels can't muster enough support to block it.

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Not quite. They all lost, but every option got some votes. Anyway, that was just a beginning : I think Labour would probably end up supporting Norway + now that May's deal has failed (for good? how many votes does she want?? she's already lost "best of 5"!!!) and if the DUP also decide to go that way, then the ERG + a few Labour rebels can't muster enough support to block it.

I meant that the Majority vote was No, not that they didn't receive any vote, bad grammar on my part.

Labours own deal has been voted on after Mays Deal on two occasions of the last three and lost by over 80 votes both times.

The problem with Norway Plus deals is that we would not be able to do our own deals outside of the EU and we would still be bound by the European Courts, currently the EU sets all the tariffs and dictates who any members can trade with, like all EU Members we impose the tariff and then pass these on to the EU coffers. It is described as a Customs union and single market but really it is a closed shop to ensure members goods and services are traded within the Union, cheaper alternatives are spurned through legislation, red tape and lobbyists are paid to gain favour, it is not an open fair or competitive market place.

Neil Kinnock is a good example of failed Politician going to the EU and making millions for himself, Mrs Kinnock and Master Kinnock, it is a cash cow for Politicians and hence the resistance by most MPs to Leave this Union. I believe we currently have over 60 MEPs, I could name two/three at best but couldn't tell you what positive contribution they actually make to the UK.

I for one do not want to vote in another EU election, but I would see this as an opportunity for both Remainers and Leavers to express their dismay at how the two major parties have treated a democratic vote by not voting for either Parties candidates should these elections happen.

 

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4 hours ago, Chingford said:

Neil Kinnock is a good example of failed Politician going to the EU and making millions for himself, Mrs Kinnock and Master Kinnock, it is a cash cow for Politicians and hence the resistance by most MPs to Leave this Union.

No, I don't believe that the possibility of getting a well-paid EU job after Westminster is a factor on why many MPs don't want the country to Leave the Union. 

Senior politicians can make big money after leaving parliament as directors,  by writing or by making speeches. For example, William Hague, Gordon Brown etc make well over a million a year by giving speeches etc. EU commissioners in comparison get paid 260k euros to 307K euro  (for the president) + perks each year and each member state has only the the right of having one commissioner. 

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47 minutes ago, Sword said:

Senior politicians can make big money after leaving parliament as directors,  by writing or by making speeches. For example, William Hague, Gordon Brown etc make well over a million a year by giving speeches etc. EU commissioners in comparison get paid 260k euros to 307K euro  (for the president) + perks each year and each member state has only the the right of having one commissioner. 

True, but the latter made most of their millions from the private sector. Mr Kinnock left his job as an MP to jump on the EU gravy train (joining wife and son, as stated) and was soon owning million pound properties courtesy of the taxpayer. 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/campaign-highlights-kinnocks-10m-eu-2100178

He was even the subject of this article in Walesonline, the on-line presence of the left leaning Western Mail newspaper in 2009. Can’t really blame him though, he and his family only took advantage of the system,  but it is difficult to see how all three ended up with top EU jobs without some behind the scenes influence.

To be fair Kinnock in private was a likeable man;  as leader, he once spent an afternoon in our practice along with our then MP ‘Pink’ Paul Murphy, on a ‘fact finding’  exercise.  He didn’t learn much from me.  But he did strike us with his ability to listen, humour and sensible open discussion. Not like the pontificating windbag he came across as in public.

Jerry

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I've only got one memory of Neil Kinnock, and that was when he tripped on the beach. Was it during the 1992 election campaign?

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Posted (edited)

I was a teenager when Neil Kinnock lost the '92 general election to John Major. I hardly remember anything about his politics now but I recall he made a powerful and emotional farewell speech. The sentence "I will regret to my dying day my failure to lead you to victory, the victory you deserved.' left a very strong impression on me in particular. It was a dignified apology to his supporters. 

I just can't see Mrs May capable of saying that when she is forced to leaves office. 

1 hour ago, jelida said:

Even if the calculations are accurate, it is saying that Kinnock Couple made £10 millions from the EU over 15 years. This figure includes £2.9 million for staff and offices and their £4.4 millions pensions. OK, it is questionable if people should be paid so much in the public sector. But like I say, senior "retired" politicians can make more than a million a year by making speeches etc. And they don't have to go to "work" everyday like Kinnock during his 10 years as EU commissioner / Vice President. The Kinnock couple could probably have made that money  (or more) if they didn't work for the EU.

There might be many reasons why MPs want the UK to stay in Europe. But hoping to get an EU job after retirement is just not one of them in my view.

 

Edited by Sword

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Another looming issue concerns the possibility of it soon being too late to organise polling cards and stations in time for the EU elections if we do get an extension. On the news this morning (Radio 4).     

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12 hours ago, Sword said:

There might be many reasons why MPs want the UK to stay in Europe. But hoping to get an EU job after retirement is just not one of them in my view.

 

Farage himself said He will happily accept his £35k pension having served in the EU, part of the EU divorce payment is to facilitate these pension pots. The bigger players I accept will get Directorships and other lucrative deals as Lobbyists/Speakers but the relatively unknown MPs serving as MEPs are entitled to a Pension even serving only a short time whichever Country they represent.

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5 hours ago, Chingford said:

Farage himself said He will happily accept his £35k pension having served in the EU, part of the EU divorce payment is to facilitate these pension pots. The bigger players I accept will get Directorships and other lucrative deals as Lobbyists/Speakers but the relatively unknown MPs serving as MEPs are entitled to a Pension even serving only a short time whichever Country they represent.

There are 73 UK MEPs and I can only find three who have previously served as Westminster MPs. They are: Nirj Deva, Jim Nicholson and Siôn Simon.

Farage himself has never been an MP.

The myth that many MPs do not want UK to leave the EU because they are hoping to become MEPs is simply not true.

It is very sad that so many people (quite understandably) are suspicious of the motives of both Leave and Remain MPs. Like everyone else, I hope the Brexit issue can be resolved soon and that government can work towards regaining the faith of the people again. 

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34 minutes ago, Sword said:

There are 73 UK MEPs and I can only find three who have previously served as Westminster MPs. They are: Nirj Deva, Jim Nicholson and Siôn Simon.

Farage himself has never been an MP.

The myth that many MPs do not want UK to leave the EU because they are hoping to become MEPs is simply not true.

It is very sad that so many people (quite understandably) are suspicious of the motives of both Leave and Remain MPs. Like everyone else, I hope the Brexit issue can be resolved soon and that government can work towards regaining the faith of the people again. 

It has no chance of regaining the faith of the people, since the traitorous bunch have thwarted Brexit at every turn. The reputation of MPs was very low prior to the latest shambles, but now is even lower, if that was possible. Now they have stopped Brexit, they have disenfrachised 17.4 million people, for many of whom there can be no redemption whatsoever for MPs. And despite their treachery, there are still some like Dominic Grieve who think that its so unfair to try to deselect them, that they have some god given right to be in Parliament and are so much more intelligent and knowledgeable that the plebs that they despise.

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2 hours ago, DaveG38 said:

government can work towards regaining the faith of the people again

And pigs may fly............................

And I may find a BU F90 penny.........................

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It will take a long time and might involve a number of general elections. But eventually, we will have a government that has the trust of the public again. The UK and many other countries have bounce back from worst situations in the past!

29 minutes ago, secret santa said:

And pigs may fly............................

And here are some flying pigs: (And for those of us without young children, Peppa is very popular with kids)

397587700_unnamed6-Copy.jpg.756df708fdfa769a8f964c9f9bc32e70.jpg

26 minutes ago, secret santa said:

And I may find a BU F90 penny.........................

What does it look like? Is it rare? (I really don't know as I don't collect pennies :) )

 

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8 minutes ago, Sword said:

Is it rare?

rarer than the chances of parliament regaining the trust of the people................................

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The MPs may have disappointed 17.4 million people but then they still have a duty of care for the other 50 million.

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