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So, Brexit....What's happening?

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31 minutes ago, Chingford said:

May needs the agreement of the EU members, all 27, to extend beyond that date.

Yes and Italy have assured Nigel Farage they will not vote in favour of an extension so it's unlikely to be extended.

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50 minutes ago, Ukstu said:

Yes and Italy have assured Nigel Farage they will not vote in favour of an extension so it's unlikely to be extended.

And Blair has been advising the French

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1 hour ago, Ukstu said:

Yes and Italy have assured Nigel Farage they will not vote in favour of an extension so it's unlikely to be extended.

Who told us that - Farage? It must be true then.. :D

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Now the EU have advised that they will grant an extension if it looks like MP's will support the deal. 

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Just watched our MPs plumb new depths with their insulting remarks about Mrs May in the Commons today.

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41 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Just watched our MPs plumb new depths with their insulting remarks about Mrs May in the Commons today.

That woman has my maximum respect. I don't think anybody could have given more effort, or taken more hostility and abuse than she has, in her efforts to deliver the will of the people. I mean, let's be honest, the vast majority of individuals would have long since folded against such an onslaught. 

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55 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Just watched our MPs plumb new depths with their insulting remarks about Mrs May in the Commons today.

 

9 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

That woman has my maximum respect. I don't think anybody could have given more effort, or taken more hostility and abuse than she has, in her efforts to deliver the will of the people. I mean, let's be honest, the vast majority of individuals would have long since folded against such an onslaught. 

 

Sorry, but I think she deserves everything she's got. She's put Party ahead of nation, stuck stubbornly to her red lines, refused to engage in proper cross-Party talks, ignored pleas for indicative votes, and when challenged she simply trots out the well worn soundbite about 'the people asked us to deliver Brexit so that's what we are going to do" rather than engage properly with the question. You listen to reasonable people like Hilary Benn, Dominic Grieve, etc, and she just comes across as stubborn, blinkered, and totally unyielding.

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28 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

comes across as stubborn, blinkered, and totally unyielding.

Sounds like Corbyn too, though then you can add in misogynist and anti Semitic as a minimum. And how could he walk out of the discussion this evening because Chuka Umunna was there? None of our politicians come out of this with much credit, except that May has been steadfast in her determination to follow through what she reasonably feels is the will of the majority which is the job she is there for,  while dissenters do their best to obfuscate that democratically expressed choice. The way things look tonight parliament will have to support her deal or in effect vote for no deal, the other two alternatives appear increasingly unlikely given previous votes in parliament, the timescale and the determination by the EU to force a decision.

I have rather enjoyed all these twists and turns over the last few months, but it does have to reach a conclusion now so that the nation can move forward.

Jerry

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I noticed that idiot Wishart asking "when will she develop a backbone", and calling her "weak, weak , weak". She's actually anything but weak.

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37 minutes ago, jelida said:

Sounds like Corbyn too,

Agreed, just as stubborn and unyielding about Brexit

though then you can add in misogynist and anti Semitic as a minimum.

No. That's nonsense though the Tories seize on it to hide their own racism. Look up just how many Labour groups are pro-Labour and against the Corbyn smearing.

And how could he walk out of the discussion this evening because Chuka Umunna was there? 

Yes. Petty.

None of our politicians come out of this with much credit, except that May has been steadfast in her determination to follow through what she reasonably feels is the will of the majority

Unfortunately, she - and most politicians - have never acknowledged just how close that result was, how divided straight down the middle the UK was, and how both sides needed to be brought together and reconciled. A Norway-style option (which most people forget that Farage supported during the referendum campaign) would have done that, even for Remainers like me; I'd have accepted that.

which is the job she is there for,  

No. Reconciliation is the job she was there for, as she herself said on the steps of Number 10 way back when.

while dissenters do their best to obfuscate that democratically expressed choice. The way things look tonight parliament will have to support her deal or in effect vote for no deal, the other two alternatives appear increasingly unlikely given previous votes in parliament, the timescale and the determination by the EU to force a decision.

I think the EU are equally determined to avoid No Deal and will (probably) support a longer extension PROVIDED the government shows willing to use the time PRODUCTIVELY, which necessarily means sweeping the ERG under the table.

I have rather enjoyed all these twists and turns over the last few months, but it does have to reach a conclusion now so that the nation can move forward.

Jerry

 

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Posted (edited)

I listened to Mrs May's statement tonight. All she did was to blame the MPs rather than taking some personal responsibility. 

If I have a chance to talk to her, I would give her the following responses to her statement. 

 

"I passionately hope MPs will find a way to back the deal I've negotiated with the EU, a deal that delivers on the result of the referendum and is the very best deal negotiable.”

The problem is using “I” rather than “we”. Saying that it is “the very best deal negotiable” is arrogance. No politician should claim that they have done such a good job and that no one else could have done better.

"And I will continue to work night and day to secure the support of my colleagues, the DUP and others for this deal.”

Why do you need to work day and night for the support of just 10 DUP MPs? That’s because you managed to lose your majority against Jeremy Corbyn? Even after Corbyn was weakened after scores and scores of resignations? After the Tory had such a big lead in the polls. And then your famous billion pounds bribe to get the support of just 10 DUP MPs. If you weren’t competent enough to win that general election, do you honestly think you were capable of handling the much harder issue of Brexit?

"But I am not prepared to delay Brexit any further than the 30th of June.”

Yes, it is your deal or no deal isn't it. You should have already held indicative votes.

"Some argue that I'm making the wrong choice and I should ask for a longer extension to the end of the year or beyond to give more time for politicians to argue over the way forward.”

"That would mean asking you to vote in European elections nearly three years after our country decided to leave.”

"What kind of message would that send? And just how bitter and divisive would that election campaign be at a time when the country desperately needs bringing back together.”

Please wake up Prime Minister, the country cannot be any more divided ever since that ill-fated first referendum.

"Some have suggested holding a second referendum.

"I don't believe that's what you want and it is not what I want.

Prime minister, please stop telling us what the public wants. The reason you lost your majority in the last election was because you misjudged what the public wanted then. Perhaps you should ask the public what they want now?

"We asked you the question already and you've given us your answer.

So why are you asking parliament for the third time if they want your deal after it has been rejected twice. Are you hoping that MPs will change their minds? But you don’t want to find out if the nation has changed its mind about Brexit however.

"Now you want us to get on with it.

"And that is what I am determined to do."

But are you capable of doing that?

If it makes you feel better Prime Minister, I think Corbyn would have done much worse.

My question to you Prime Minister is this:

If a second referendum is held (and you probably should quit if that were to happen) and the country decides to stay, what do you think it is the right thing for the UK to do then?

Edited by Sword
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The question is now stark. What happens next? Parliament is paralysed, but life and events are not. They will carry on regardless. We have to end up somewhere even if parliament is incapable of deciding.

Will it ultimately be exit on WTO terms, be that 29th March or 30th June? 

As far as Mrs May's address to the nation, I think she expresses the frustration of so many people with this ongoing paralysis - parliament contemplating its navel as she said yesterday.  

   

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Sums it up nicely...worth watching.

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Prehaps the first thing parliment could do post brexit is re-enact the treason laws.

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11 hours ago, Peter said:

 

Sums it up nicely...worth watching.

Verhoefstadt spoke passionately from the heart, albeit with a large degree of impatience. Farage spoke his usual quota of lies. One small advantage of Brexit is that we won't have to see odious little toad again.

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42 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Verhoefstadt spoke passionately from the heart, albeit with a large degree of impatience. Farage spoke his usual quota of lies. One small advantage of Brexit is that we won't have to see odious little toad again.

No great loss either.

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Posted (edited)

Pekris2 you are at it again marking other people's work like a frustrated old school master. This a forum where people express ideas and you are overstepping the line by annotating their posts with your  ramblings. IF YOU HAVE THING TO SAY WRITE YOUR OWN POST.

On the subject. A delay in Brexit seems to have been arranged . It seems a month subject to an acceptance of May's deal being passed. Assuming the parliament is allowed by the speaker to debate and vote on the motion it still needs a massive change of heart by MPs. A no deal is looking increasing likely.

Edited by ozjohn

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Just now, ozjohn said:

Pekris2 you are at it again marking other people's work like a frustrated old school master. This a forum where people express ideas and you are overstepping the line by annotating their posts with your  ramblings. IF YOU HAVE THING TO SAY WRITE OWN POST.

On the subject. A delay in Brexit seems to have been arranged . It seems a month subject to an acceptance of May's deal being passed. Assuming the parliament is allowed by the speaker to debate and vote on the motion it still needs a massive change of heart by MPs. A no deal is looking increasing likely.

That's the logical likelihood, but I wouldn't put money on that treacherous bunch of MPs not cancelling Brexit altogether, by revoking A50.

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Posted (edited)

DaveG38,

Perhaps. However the application to leave under  A 50 was applied for by the UK and accepted by the EU who are the only people who can rescind it. As you can see the EU is using this to put pressure on UK MPs who do not want to leave without a deal. As it stands the UK has painted its self into a corner and a no deal Brexit is the likely outcome. Perhaps that's May's strategy!

Personally I do not think this is a bad thing for the UK. I have to say If the UK in the top ten of world economies cannot  thrive on its own there must be something seriously wrong with the country.   Prior to signing up to Treaty of Rome the UK managed to operate as a successful country. No  shortages of food or medications or other scares put about. The ports and customs worked ok as well (subject to industrial action). It has to be said in its negotiations for Brexit the UK has not acted like a country of this stature.

 

 

 

Edited by ozjohn

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17 hours ago, ozjohn said:

DaveG38,

Perhaps. However the application to leave under  A 50 was applied for by the UK and accepted by the EU who are the only people who can rescind it. As you can see the EU is using this to put pressure on UK MPs who do not want to leave without a deal. As it stands the UK has painted its self into a corner and a no deal Brexit is the likely outcome. Perhaps that's May's strategy!

Personally I do not think this is a bad thing for the UK. I have to say If the UK in the top ten of world economies cannot  thrive on its own there must be something seriously wrong with the country.   Prior to signing up to Treaty of Rome the UK managed to operate as a successful country. No  shortages of food or medications or other scares put about. The ports and customs worked ok as well (subject to industrial action). It has to be said in its negotiations for Brexit the UK has not acted like a country of this stature.

 

 

I take it you don't remember the 1970s before we join the then common market. Anyway we can unilaterally recind A50, no permission require from the EU and they can't prevent it.

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5 hours ago, Gary D said:

I take it you don't remember the 1970s before we join the then common market. Anyway we can unilaterally recind A50, no permission require from the EU and they can't prevent it.

Or even just after, for a few years. "The sick man of Europe" we were known as. What with devaluations, strikes, rampant inflation, frequent power cuts, a 3-day week, etc etc. It's most unlikely we'll be back there, but we certainly wouldn't be at all if we Remained.

The EU wouldn't want to prevent us rescinding A50 - they fear No Deal nearly as much as we do.

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Or even just after, for a few years. "The sick man of Europe" we were known as. What with devaluations, strikes, rampant inflation, frequent power cuts, a 3-day week, etc etc. It's most unlikely we'll be back there, but we certainly wouldn't be at all if we Remained.

But our discharge of the ‘Sick man of Europe’ tag was very little to do with membership of the EEC and everything to do with nearly two decades of Conservative government under Mrs T and Major, following a decade of largely inept government (of both colours)  which allowed unregulated and strongly left wing unions to cause disruption throughout manufacturing and other industries in their efforts to prevent modernisation and efficiency savings which might just have allowed said industries to remain competitive. As a result we lost most to other countries which had modernised. It certainly took over a decade for the country to re-focus, primarily on the service sector where we are now. And I can remember inflation peaking at 15% in 1992, after nearly 20 years of membership, during the ERM debacle when the main though not only factor that triggered the instability with regard to the agreed parameters was high German interest rates caused by the costs of German reunification . Britain was not the only country affected, and 10 months later European monetary policy rules were relaxed; I suppose the point I am trying to make is that membership of the EU is not and will never be a financial panacea,  there is too much regional disparity even within the Eurozone, and the situation with Spain, Italy and Greece is far from resolved.

It is true that the EU would not be unhappy if we exercised our right to rescind article 50, but for our parliament to override the democratically expressed wish of the population is unlikely and highly risky. And the EU have made it clear that a no deal may be preferable to them than further years of indecision.

Jerry

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Jerry,

An accurate appraisal of the UK situation. Thank you.

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10 hours ago, jelida said:

But our discharge of the ‘Sick man of Europe’ tag was very little to do with membership of the EEC and everything to do with nearly two decades of Conservative government under Mrs T and Major,

There's a lot of truth in that , though in part it was due to Maggie T's role in helping to set up the Single Market in the form we now recognise it. Remember also the role of Heath's Tory government in confronting the miners and being told in no uncertain terms in 1974 - after asking "Who governs Britain?" - "Not you, mate!"

following a decade of largely inept government (of both colours)  which allowed unregulated and strongly left wing unions to cause disruption throughout manufacturing and other industries in their efforts to prevent modernisation and efficiency savings which might just have allowed said industries to remain competitive. As a result we lost most to other countries which had modernised. It certainly took over a decade for the country to re-focus, primarily on the service sector where we are now. And I can remember inflation peaking at 15% in 1992, after nearly 20 years of membership, during the ERM debacle when the main though not only factor that triggered the instability with regard to the agreed parameters was high German interest rates caused by the costs of German reunification .

Ah, yes - but don't also ignore the role in inflation caused by Nigel Lawson's complete deregulation of the housing and mortgage market from 1988. The housing boom that ensued was followed by the recession of the early 90s.

Britain was not the only country affected, and 10 months later European monetary policy rules were relaxed; I suppose the point I am trying to make is that membership of the EU is not and will never be a financial panacea,  there is too much regional disparity even within the Eurozone, and the situation with Spain, Italy and Greece is far from resolved.

I guess that's true, but membership of and free trade with the world's biggest single market has never hurt us, not in the way that leaving it will.

It is true that the EU would not be unhappy if we exercised our right to rescind article 50, but for our parliament to override the democratically expressed wish of the population is unlikely and highly risky. And the EU have made it clear that a no deal may be preferable to them than further years of indecision.

There's so much to unpack there, but it's already been said in this topic more than once and I simply don't have the resources to go through it all again! Suffice to say (for now...) that our democracy is Parliamentary, and we the people elect our representatives then leave them to get on with doing what we trust is the best thing for the country. If they don't, then in a maximum of 5 years we can send them packing and elect another lot.

Jerry

 

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On 3/21/2019 at 10:30 PM, ozjohn said:

Pekris2 you are at it again marking other people's work like a frustrated old school master. This a forum where people express ideas and you are overstepping the line by annotating their posts with your  ramblings. IF YOU HAVE THING TO SAY WRITE YOUR OWN POST.

On the subject. A delay in Brexit seems to have been arranged . It seems a month subject to an acceptance of May's deal being passed. Assuming the parliament is allowed by the speaker to debate and vote on the motion it still needs a massive change of heart by MPs. A no deal is looking increasing likely.

I don't think that's the case at all. Many respondents on forums will split the quote in a long post, into a series of smaller quotes, so they can address the various points individually. I've done the same myself on other forums.

The problem on this forum is that the entire quote is boxed. So you have to go into the quote itself to respond to the separate points individually. Hence Chris was making his response in a different colour to distinguish between quote and response.     

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