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So, Brexit....What's happening?

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6 hours ago, secret santa said:

Most of them lured away from my Saints F.C. with umpteen pieces of silver. I hate them as much as I hate Man U.

But enough of this - back to Brexit.

I think "most" is a loose interpretation of the facts! A few, certainly. Van Dijk is the main man though - and someone would have got him (City? Barcelona?) if we hadn't got there first. :) 

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Hypocrisy?

Brexit Secretary tried hard to persuade MPs all day to vote for a Brexit extension and then voted against it himself...

Labour claiming that they wanted to pursue a second referendum and then failed to vote for it ...

Prime minister said it is wrong to ask the population twice with regard to Brexit but is planning to put "her deal" before the Commons for the third and possibly fourth time hoping to get the result she wanted ...

 

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Posted (edited)

I don't think it is hypocrisy so much as a free for all.

Rule #1. Party politics takes precedence over running the country.

Rule #2. You have a parliament that disagrees with the decision of the referendum and will do anything to stop it being implemented.

Rule #3. Just as the country was divided across race, class, gender or whatever, so is Parliament. You have two main parties that are pretty much split down the middle when it comes to the official party line. Without coherent party plans there are 640ish individual plans. Occasionally two MPs coalesce around a certain point when they inadvertently discover their ideas are similar, but by and large the entire corpus of MPs acts as individuals.

TM clearly decided that she was going to negotiate her idea of Brexit without taking into consideration the people she assembled around her, let alone the other 600+ alternative views of Parliament, nor the 30-odd million visions of the voting public. That's why the agreed document p'd off so many. It's crap with us having to pay heavily for the privilege of being told what to do without a say, but then again, so would be the appeal of rejoining the EU at great cost or leaving at different costs if zero planning has been done - which I wouldn't put beyond them. A modicum of planning, if it has been done, could get us away safely. Hope springs eternal.

There will be be a solution to this - there always is, but I wouldn't like to hazard a guess where it will come from given Westminster is sort of not in control of anything. My starter for 10 would be to remove the problem at its source -  blow up the HoC so that the country can function again. 60+ million heads are better than the defective communal brain cell running the country at present. Maybe our best hope lies in a modern day Guy Fawkes.

Edited by Rob

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11 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

I think "most" is a loose interpretation of the facts! A few, certainly. Van Dijk is the main man though - and someone would have got him (City? Barcelona?) if we hadn't got there first. :) 

van Dijk is a world class player. Defender, creator and goal scorer. 

11 hours ago, Sword said:

Hypocrisy?

Brexit Secretary tried hard to persuade MPs all day to vote for a Brexit extension and then voted against it himself...

Labour claiming that they wanted to pursue a second referendum and then failed to vote for it ...

Prime minister said it is wrong to ask the population twice with regard to Brexit but is planning to put "her deal" before the Commons for the third and possibly fourth time hoping to get the result she wanted ...

 

The entire process has degenerated into a total farce. I don't know about just TM losing her authority, I'd personally have to question whether the entire assembled parliament has lost both authority and any semblance of national credibility.  

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I think the biggest problem is that a large part of the population voted for something that there wasn't a box on the ballot paper for.

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7 minutes ago, Gary D said:

I think the biggest problem is that a large part of the population voted for something that there wasn't a box on the ballot paper for.

Yep.  I voted to leave the European Union, but apparently that wasn't on the ballot paper.

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Posted (edited)

There were three possibilities from a simplistic viewpoint:

1) Remain and keep status quo 

2) Leave (with no deal if necessary) for better or worse

3) Leave, in the believe that UK will be better off with new deals

Parliament has voted against no deal. To be fair to to them, opinion polls indicate that the majority of population don't want no deal either. So realistically, "no deal" will probably now need to win a second referendum if it is going to happen. Category 2 Leavers (quite understandably won't like this one bit and feel cheated) but this look like the reality now. 

Not many believe UK will be better off with leaving with May's deal. Yes, one can say that she negotiated badly, was incompetent  etc etc but this doesn't change the fact that EU is not going to give us a better deal now or in two years time. It is very possible that a percentage of Leave voters in category 3 don't want Brexit if it means May's deal. 

And if we were to give up Brexit, many of the Leavers will be understanding very upset and there will be political and social chaos for years to come. 

Hence the mess we are in.

The government and parliament are in a no-win situation and this will drag on. Hence, however unpalatable a second referendum is in principle, it is a way out of this deadlock and give some "sort" of legitimacy to the final decision made.

 

Edited by Sword
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1 hour ago, Sword said:

Yes, one can say that she negotiated badly, was incompetent  etc etc

 If things were going so badly, why didn't David Davies speak up earlier ? Like 18 months or more ago ?

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Irrespective of what happens in the next two weeks, this issue isn't going to go away.  Either May's deal or no Brexit will have electoral consequences for the Conservative party.  Therefore, you should prepare for a Corbyn government and that is going to be much worse than leaving on WTO terms.

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2 hours ago, Sword said:

There were three possibilities from a simplistic viewpoint:

1) Remain and keep status quo 

2) Leave (with no deal if necessary) for better or worse

3) Leave, in the believe that UK will be better off with new deals

Parliament has voted against no deal. To be fair to to them, opinion polls indicate that the majority of population don't want no deal either. So realistically, "no deal" will probably now need to win a second referendum if it is going to happen. Category 2 Leavers (quite understandably won't like this one bit and feel cheated) but this look like the reality now. 

Not many believe UK will be better off with leaving with May's deal. Yes, one can say that she negotiated badly, was incompetent  etc etc but this doesn't change the fact that EU is not going to give us a better deal now or in two years time. It is very possible that a percentage of Leave voters in category 3 don't want Brexit if it means May's deal. 

And if we were to give up Brexit, many of the Leavers will be understanding very upset and there will be political and social chaos for years to come. 

Hence the mess we are in.

The government and parliament are in a no-win situation and this will drag on. Hence, however unpalatable a second referendum is in principle, it is a way out of this deadlock and give some "sort" of legitimacy to the final decision made.

 

Yes for those that bothered to read the leave manifesto options 1 and 3 were what we got to vote for.

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37 minutes ago, Gary D said:

Yes for those that bothered to read the leave manifesto options 1 and 3 were what we got to vote for.

Indeed, and the subsequent General Election Manifesto (for those that bothered to read it) said that "No deal is better than a bad deal", but here we are with "Any deal is better than no deal".

Fatten up your pets, Corbyn is coming.

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Problem is that "good" and "bad" are just subjective. May is still insisting that she has got a "good deal" for the UK. She even insisted that there was "strength and stability" after she lost her majority.

Of course the Leave Manifesto didn't mention the possibility that we might find ourselves worse off after leaving. It is the obvious risk for voting Leave. In the same way, the Remain Manifesto never mentioned that we would never find out what new opportunities are possible if we stayed.

Corbyn is still behind in the polls. At least that's still something to be thankful for. 

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28 minutes ago, Sword said:

Corbyn is still behind in the polls. At least that's still something to be thankful for. 

Not with the latest Survation poll (who were closest to predicting the last GE result). Lab 39%, Con 35%, LibDem 10%, UKIP 5%.

Even the latest YouGov poll had the Conservatives down 5%.

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2 minutes ago, Nick said:

Not with the latest Survation poll (who were closest to predicting the last GE result). Lab 39%, Con 35%, LibDem 10%, UKIP 5%.

Even the latest YouGov poll had the Conservatives down 5%.

Great. I will need to stock up on a sufficient quantity of wine then. 

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Political party's don't win elections they lose them and the conservatives are doing so badly with running the show labour should be miles ahead, but they are not.

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I tend to follow this ‘poll of polls’ which tracks polls throughout Europe. 

https://pollofpolls.eu/GB

But take all polls with a pinch of salt. Don’t forget that the last poll released before the 2016 referendum gave ‘Remain’ a near 10% lead.

Jerry

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21 hours ago, Nick said:

Indeed, and the subsequent General Election Manifesto (for those that bothered to read it) said that "No deal is better than a bad deal", but here we are with "Any deal is better than no deal".

Here's one of the biggest problems. There are Brexiters who claim that over 80% of voters at the last General Election voted for Brexit as both Conservative and Labour manifestos accepted it and would implement it.

That may well be true, but who votes about Europe at a General Election? And how many read a manifesto, especially just one small paragraph about Europe? My MP is a Labour Remainer in a city that voted Remain. There will be many in 2017 who voted for a particular party as they had all their life, but even those that didn't must have voted here for a man who was clearly pro-EU. And repeat that scenario in many constituencies across the land. So the GE result should be wholly disregarded for the Brexit question.

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Sorry to bring coins into this discussion, but...

1353541-1950528617.jpg.e89277f1cfb532e632ecb0d18fcd10a7.jpg

Could this result in the first overdate for very many years? :D

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Ah a fantasy piece, who's minting it, the London Mint office?

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48 minutes ago, Gary D said:

Ah a fantasy piece, who's minting it, the London Mint office?

I don't think that's a fantasy piece but is the official Royal Mint proposed design. 

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22 minutes ago, Sword said:

I don't think that's a fantasy piece but is the official Royal Mint proposed design. 

Yes. Already minted I believe, unless Theresa May asks for an extension. :lol:

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Apparently, Philip Hammond was asked about the "wrong" date on the prototype pieces on the Andrew Marr Show. He simply replied “They could become collectors’ pieces”.

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Looks like nothing will actually happen on the 29th March. With hindsight, the prime minister should have set the original Brexit date three days after that date. 

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If nothing else happens between now and the 29th March, by default we leave with no deal, as written in law.

May needs the agreement of the EU members, all 27, to extend beyond that date.

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