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So, Brexit....What's happening?

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Given that import fees are levied where appropriate, I find it incredulous that someone would refuse to pay on the grounds that they haven't managed to avoid paying tax owed. Irrespective of the merits or otherwise of import taxes, it is incumbent on people to accept the legal position on the day, and probably more pertinently, account for it when making a purchase. 

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9 hours ago, ozjohn said:

 Firstly let's be clear what we are talking about. For goods imported for personal consumption  In Oz a 10% GST is imposed on imported goods coming in to Australia.. The regulations changed in July 2018 after lobbying by retail companies in Australia where goods imported by private persons were GST free up to $1000 in value. You can probably still get some stuff through by mail from private sellers but run the risk of them being intercepted by customs. If it is through Ebay/PayPal the 10% GST is levied and ends up as consolidated revenue from Australian customs formally HM Customs. Amazon stopped selling to Australia from amazon. com and amazon.co.uk but they setup their own company in Australia where they levy the 10% GST on sales . Therefore it's now a tariff as well as an internal tax on goods and services both under the guise of GST. The only concession is when you come back from overseas with the goods in your procession the first $800 is GST free. However this has made duty free in Australia less useful than before  with the exception of booze which attracts excise as well Tobacco is almost banned in Australia where you can only  bring 1 packet of 25 cigarettes with out paying the excise and GST the excise on tobacco in Australia is very high. A packet of  25 cigarettes is about $30. It seems  to be different for the UK where it seems VAT is levied inside the UK while duty is imposed on good coming from overseas countries outside the EU zone i.e. Australia.

All of this has no relevance to this thread which was started with the ABC post on Norway Sweden customs and the overstated customs issues between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland in the event of a hard Brexit. Personally I think the  Irish Republic's objections to a hard border stem more from the  economic loss they would incur from the loss of sales to the UK rather than the assertion it may stir up the troubles again. Given the Irish Republics policy for a united Ireland I don't think this would worry them too much as they only paid lip service when trying to resolve the troubles in the past. There is also the suspicion  that the EU is supporting the Irish claim to make things as difficult as they can as they know it is unacceptable to the UK to stay tied to the EU customs zone or split off part of the UK to the EU customs zone  after Brexit which would also enhance the Irish Republic's territorial ambitions regarding North Ireland.

 

4 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Factually incorrect. VAT is not a tariff. It's what all purchasers of goods in this country have to pay, and the only time people think of it separately is when it's not shown as part of the 'price to pay'. Otherwise the price shown on the ticket or website includes VAT  and few people  think about it as a separate component. Your customer was obviously an exception. VAT is just one of the many taxes like income tax, National Insurance, fuel duty, duty on drink and cigarettes, etc. Part of the cost of living.

As I said however, excise duty ("still to pay before you can collect your goods") is a different matter.

Two countries with differences in the way GST/VAT is applied. In Australia  now it has a tariff aspect to it for personal imports. Another difference is in NZ where  there is no GST/VAT refund at airports etc. when taking goods out of the country as there is in the UK (out of the EU) and Australia (out of Australia)  The main tariff on commercial imports into Australia is the WTO rate. STILL NO COMMENT ON THE BORDER ISSUES?

PS it's excise on alcohol , gasoline etc. 

Edited by ozjohn
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Correction excise duty is levied at the point of manufacture by the country where the goods are produced  whereas customs duty is levied on the importation  the goods. of which both are passed on to the consumer.  I think I've had enough of tax.

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8 Labour resignations, now 3 Conservative ones. Worryingly frank statements from both sides. Extremists in both parties.  

With Brexit, the cliff edge of no deal gets ever closer. Now just 37 days away. Yet still Westminster clings to the obviously vain hope that the EU will give way on the backstop and re-open the deal for further negotiation. How unrealistically full of their own arrogant self importance our politicians are. 

What a complete and utter crumbling sad shambles our country has become.

 

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

8 Labour resignations, now 3 Conservative ones. Worryingly frank statements from both sides. Extremists in both parties.  

With Brexit, the cliff edge of no deal gets ever closer. Now just 37 days away. Yet still Westminster clings to the obviously vain hope that the EU will give way on the backstop and re-open the deal for further negotiation. How unrealistically full of their own arrogant self importance our politicians are. 

What a complete and utter crumbling sad shambles our country has become.

 

I totally agree with you on this. As always they would far rather argue amongst themselves than try to sort out the mess we are in. More interested in who is in power that the job at hand.

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3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

8 Labour resignations, now 3 Conservative ones. Worryingly frank statements from both sides. Extremists in both parties.  

With Brexit, the cliff edge of no deal gets ever closer. Now just 37 days away. Yet still Westminster clings to the obviously vain hope that the EU will give way on the backstop and re-open the deal for further negotiation. How unrealistically full of their own arrogant self importance our politicians are. 

What a complete and utter crumbling sad shambles our country has become.

 

Ironically if the EU do not compromise on the backstop, in 37 days they will have to impose the border themselves. Who will blink first. 

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46 minutes ago, Chingford said:

Ironically if the EU do not compromise on the backstop, in 37 days they will have to impose the border themselves. Who will blink first. 

Good point. Unless there is a 12th hour  change by the EU it looks like Brexit will happen. The only thing the commons could do is to force the government to approach Brussels for an extension. Politically very risky. Something party defectors will find out at the next election. At present it seems the leaving date is set in concrete and will happen come what may. No pun intended.

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1 hour ago, Chingford said:

Ironically if the EU do not compromise on the backstop, in 37 days they will have to impose the border themselves. Who will blink first. 

There won't effectively be a hard border. Irish and Northern Irish tradesmen have already said they'll just use the back roads in and out. 

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

There won't effectively be a hard border. Irish and Northern Irish tradesmen have already said they'll just use the back roads in and out. 

So that means there will be two economies, the legal documented one and the black one. Who would have thought that the Italian way of life would come out tops courtesy of Brussels?

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Perhaps you could ask Trump to  build a wall between Ireland and the north. More seriously someone will have to check trade and levy duties between the two Irelands as well as checking for illegals, criminals etc. I can't see how this will work with out some form of border control perhaps on the Norway Sweden model . Last year I was on a bus tour travelling on the  Oresund Bridge between Denmark and Sweden  both in the Schengen  zone we were still checked at the Swedish border  Having said that I have driven all over North Europe  without been stopped at all. 

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On 20 February 2019 at 9:07 PM, Chingford said:

Ironically if the EU do not compromise on the backstop, in 37 days they will have to impose the border themselves. Who will blink first. 

The EU cannot compromise on the backstop - they (as May obviously isn't going to, in thrall to her ERG 'party within a party') have to protect the Good Friday Agreement. 

 

23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

There won't effectively be a hard border. Irish and Northern Irish tradesmen have already said they'll just use the back roads in and out. 

Interesting - where did you hear that? If it happens, it means any EU member state could use Ireland to get effectively free trade with the UK and vice versa. I imagine Dublin would soon take a dim view of that, especially if the EU threatened to protect the Single Market.

 

22 hours ago, Rob said:

So that means there will be two economies, the legal documented one and the black one. Who would have thought that the Italian way of life would come out tops courtesy of Brussels?

I very much doubt Brussels would wear it for very long. The Single Market does have its own border after all. Corbyn's conversion to the idea of a Customs Union increasingly looks like the most sensible alternative. There's no great resistance to the idea, apart from the hardest of hard Brexiters.

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22 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

The EU cannot compromise on the backstop - they (as May obviously isn't going to, in thrall to her ERG 'party within a party') have to protect the Good Friday Agreement. 

True, and rightly so. They will put other EU countries ahead of our interests - and that means protecting the interests of the Irish Republic, ahead of the exiting UK. 

Interesting - where did you hear that? If it happens, it means any EU member state could use Ireland to get effectively free trade with the UK and vice versa. I imagine Dublin would soon take a dim view of that, especially if the EU threatened to protect the Single Market.

It was in a late night interview on Radio 5 live. Short of sealing the border, there's really not a lot anyone can do. They'd got it all figured out, with local geographical knowledge being a major asset.  

 

As above.

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On 2/20/2019 at 11:44 PM, Rob said:

So that means there will be two economies, the legal documented one and the black one. Who would have thought that the Italian way of life would come out tops courtesy of Brussels?

It's just like setting before during after a war where between two opposing parties there is a third parties that will connect the two,like a third man or a private company enterprise etc l,who where they will find to fill those who can connect the Ireland,UK,EU in the back stop ?..legally and others etc.

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"MPs to have final vote by 12 March, says May".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47348610

Truly frightful! And if May is defeated, there will be just 2 weeks to sort out a plan! Then I guess no deal or 2nd referendum will be the most probable outcomes. Hardly any point in an extension unless one can put forward a good reason why the extra time would make any difference. 

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1 hour ago, Sword said:

"MPs to have final vote by 12 March, says May".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47348610

Truly frightful! And if May is defeated, there will be just 2 weeks to sort out a plan! Then I guess no deal or 2nd referendum will be the most probable outcomes. Hardly any point in an extension unless one can put forward a good reason why the extra time would make any difference. 

Wrong on every level. But it won't stop the Cooper/Letwin amendment being voted on this week. If that gets voted through then we won't leave without a deal. Always assuming that the EU accepts a request to extend article 50. 

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Wrong on every level. But it won't stop the Cooper/Letwin amendment being voted on this week. If that gets voted through then we won't leave without a deal. Always assuming that the EU accepts a request to extend article 50. 

I am not totally clear with the of Cooper/Letwin vote. If it is just an amendment, then isn't it true that it will not be legally binding even if it gets voted through? Or are they trying to get it through as a bill so that it will eventually become legislation?

Edited by Sword

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55 minutes ago, Sword said:

I am not totally clear with the of Cooper/Letwin vote. If it is just an amendment, then isn't it true that it will not be legally binding even if it gets voted through? Or are they trying to get it through as a bill so that it will eventually become legislation?

I think it's a legislative amendment? Cooper's similar amendment was defeated a couple of weeks ago, but the non-binding amendment that was voted on the same night was passed. 

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On 2/21/2019 at 1:26 AM, ozjohn said:

Perhaps you could ask Trump to  build a wall between Ireland and the north. More seriously someone will have to check trade and levy duties between the two Irelands as well as checking for illegals, criminals etc. I can't see how this will work with out some form of border control perhaps on the Norway Sweden model . Last year I was on a bus tour travelling on the  Oresund Bridge between Denmark and Sweden  both in the Schengen  zone we were still checked at the Swedish border  Having said that I have driven all over North Europe  without been stopped at all. 

I got off the Copenhagen to Malmö train this summer and there were 'border police' on the platform,

but they were definitely not interested in me- they were just looking for arms and drugs, like other European border police do.

 

I had a non-binding amendment on a train to Paris once....

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20 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

I think it's a legislative amendment? Cooper's similar amendment was defeated a couple of weeks ago, but the non-binding amendment that was voted on the same night was passed. 

I heard on the radio this morning that the amendment would "pave the way" for a bill if it pass.

However, Labour has just announced that it is prepared to back a new Brexit referendum. I think it is looking likely now that Cooper / Letwin vote will pass and a second referendum will happen. Personally, I think this is the least bad of all the options.

Labour has also missed a trick I think. If they were prepared to back a new referendum before the no confidence vote, then May might have been toppled. A Corbyn led Labour government is .... 😱 😢😭💀

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What will happen when the 52% who voted leave and are being told they must change their mind, don't? I think most are pretty p'd off already.

This whole affair has been plagued by a parliament that is working its collective b******s off to ensure they don't do as instructed. Essentially, the decision to leave has been hijacked by 600 MPs. Maybe it would be better if some members claimed political asylum in the EU seeing as they hold the EU closer to their heart than their desire to represent the wishes of the people.

Whatever, I can't see the current system surviving as you were, and think there is a serious possibility of political anarchy in the short term with only the schizophrenic SNP (want to leave a union/don't want to leave a union) and the Lib Dems who will support anything European remaining intact as coherent units. The entire political structure is on the point of breaking, if it hasn't done so already.

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41 minutes ago, Rob said:

What will happen when the 52% who voted leave and are being told they must change their mind, don't? I think most are pretty p'd off already.

Perhaps a significant percentage of the 52% have already changed their mind? 

If not, then Leave will win again and leave we must (with or without a deal). A Leave win will at least ensure Brexit without opposition from the Remainers. 

A victory for Remain in the 2nd referendum will of course result in bitterness and turbulence for years. But at least this painful process can come to an end for now.

 

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Unfortunately there is already a precedence for Governments to call a second referendum on EU votes they don't like, and a couple have just ignored them, Ireland was first with Lisbon Treaty, followed by France, Denmark and Greece, now it would seem the UK.

Most Polls before the referendum showed clearly most asked wanted to Remain, the actual vote proved different, so I would discount them as a barometer of public feeling.

A second referendum would do untold harm to the Political system whatever the outcome

Edited by Chingford
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Absolutely right. Earlier one of the posts on this matter asserted that the government's responsibility was to act in a way that that it thinks is in the best interest of the country. Even quoting Churchill, which was amusing considering the left leanings of the author. The difference here is the government specifically asked the people for their vote on the matter as they were split.. Having received a vote to leave from the people many polies refuse to accept the decision of the people which is damaging to the political processes of the country and likely to cause far more  long term damage to the country than any no deal Brexit.

Edited by ozjohn
Typo
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1 hour ago, Sword said:

Perhaps a significant percentage of the 52% have already changed their mind? 

If not, then Leave will win again and leave we must (with or without a deal). A Leave win will at least ensure Brexit without opposition from the Remainers. 

A victory for Remain in the 2nd referendum will of course result in bitterness and turbulence for years. But at least this painful process can come to an end for now.

Quite so. One thing hard Brexiters just will not accept is that there are very many reasons people voted the way they did in 2016, on both sides. Who knows what the sentiments are now, but if there is to be a second referendum (based on what we now know rather than the vague information and promises made 3 years ago) then both sides must accept the outcome, whatever it is.

54 minutes ago, Chingford said:

Unfortunately there is already a precedence for Governments to call a second referendum on EU votes they don't like, and a couple have just ignored them, Ireland was first with Lisbon Treaty, followed by France, Denmark and Greece, now it would seem the UK.

Most Polls before the referendum showed clearly most asked wanted to Remain, the actual vote proved different, so I would discount them as a barometer of public feeling.

A second referendum would do untold harm to the Political system whatever the outcome

You say "unfortunately" but in the case of Ireland and Denmark, the voters overturned the result of the previous referendum so it wasn't their government who decided the outcome. The case of Greece is different - the government there ignored the result of the referendum and settled a deal with the EU. You'd have thought that Greek government would have been thrown out at the next election but amazingly they were re-elected.

I think the FIRST referendum did untold harm to the political system already, but as we may be seeing seismic changes in the traditional 2-party FPTP system, that may not prove to be a bad thing in the long run. A single party exerting a stranglehold for 5, 10, 15 years is not really a good system for the modern era.

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