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1949threepence

Does evidence actually matter anymore?

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With all the furore surrounding Brett Kavanaugh, and other examples where "accusations" and "allegations" are made about an individual, often several decades after the alleged event, I'm wondering if the mere act of finger pointing is sufficient to ruin someone's life and reputation. As in Kavanaugh's case, which the FBI have now looked at, when examined in the cold light of day, it usually follows that there is either zero, or insufficient evidence to warrant either further investigation, or a charge.

Our justice system relies on evidence in order to sustain credibility and to prevent a descent into utter chaos. Taken to its logical conclusion, it would mean that anybody could accuse anybody else of literally anything. Indeed, the accused could counter accuse with some made up story that might sound equally (or not) plausible. 

Should there perhaps be a reasonable time bar imposed on taking any case involving lesser degrees of seriousness, where the accuser can provide no hard evidence to support their assertion? In Kavanaugh's case the alleged offence supposedly took place in 1982 - 36 years ago.  

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10 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I'm wondering if the mere act of finger pointing is sufficient to ruin someone's life and reputation.

In some cases (this being a prime example) it certainly is, much like how a teacher can be wrongly accused of pedophilia but still have their career ruined.

Not sure what you can do to prevent this though - on the flip side it would seem that Bill Cosby is guilty of his charges, and the only reason those allegations went anywhere is because multiple people were saying the same thing.

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The problem is manifold:

  • Kavanaugh is up for the highest legal office in the land but has not demonstrated 'judicial temperament' which is essential in that role
  • his own diaries testify against him, and forced him to lie about their meaning (terms like "barf" and "Devil's Triangle" were redefined by him)
  • as this is not a criminal trial, but a job nomination, different standards apply
  • 'hard evidence' is almost impossible to provide in a case like this - if the accusation is true, you can understand why Ford tried to mentally bury it
  • why haven't any of Trump's other Supreme Court nominees come under attack in similar ways? It this was political, they would have been without doubt.
  • I agree that it would be nigh on impossible to now bring criminal charges, but not to repudiate the nomination; let's not forget that Kavanaugh was a mere law clerk until promoted by Bush for political reasons (repaying favours? Not sure.) - further investigation may or may not be appropriate, the FBI seem to think not.

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It's not the FBI that decides if further investigation is required nor the extent of that investigation.  The White House itself placed limits on the FBI investigation as to who could be interviewed.  Curiously,  these interviews included neither Kavanaugh  nor his accuser.

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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

The problem is manifold:

  • Kavanaugh is up for the highest legal office in the land but has not demonstrated 'judicial temperament' which is essential in that role
  • his own diaries testify against him, and forced him to lie about their meaning (terms like "barf" and "Devil's Triangle" were redefined by him)
  • as this is not a criminal trial, but a job nomination, different standards apply
  • 'hard evidence' is almost impossible to provide in a case like this - if the accusation is true, you can understand why Ford tried to mentally bury it
  • why haven't any of Trump's other Supreme Court nominees come under attack in similar ways? It this was political, they would have been without doubt.
  • I agree that it would be nigh on impossible to now bring criminal charges, but not to repudiate the nomination; let's not forget that Kavanaugh was a mere law clerk until promoted by Bush for political reasons (repaying favours? Not sure.) - further investigation may or may not be appropriate, the FBI seem to think not.
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Kavanaugh is up for the highest legal office in the land but has not demonstrated 'judicial temperament' which is essential in that role

Kind of understandable if accused of something he's not done. We're all human.

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his own diaries testify against him, and forced him to lie about their meaning (terms like "barf" and "Devil's Triangle" were redefined by him)

Maybe he meant then in a different way. 

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as this is not a criminal trial, but a job nomination, different standards apply

Yes and no. I'm not sure that someone coming out of the woodwork at an opportune moment for the democrats, to sling out an accusation, should mean that all other factors relating to job qualification are put to one side.

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'hard evidence' is almost impossible to provide in a case like this - if the accusation is true, you can understand why Ford tried to mentally bury it

36 years later and at a critical juncture in the career path of the accused? Tad convenient don't you think?

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why haven't any of Trump's other Supreme Court nominees come under attack in similar ways? It this was political, they would have been without doubt.

There's only been one other actually appointed by Trump, and it would have looked too obvious if they'd tried to discredit all the potential nominees. 

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I agree that it would be nigh on impossible to now bring criminal charges, but not to repudiate the nomination; let's not forget that Kavanaugh was a mere law clerk until promoted by Bush for political reasons (repaying favours? Not sure.) - further investigation may or may not be appropriate, the FBI seem to think not.

So to bring this down to ordinary level and applying the same standards would mean that anybody's job chances could be ruined by an individual who didn't like them, and made up a story in the hope of discrediting them.

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Sorry Peck, I'm playing devils advocate to a certain extent here. I do see both sides of the story, but whilst I think Kavanaugh should get nowhere near the post if he is guilty, such guilt is going to be impossible to nail down, especially given that Blasey-Ford is hopelessly vague when it comes to hard facts such as dates, times and locations. At least Kavanaugh has actually got diaries from the time.

We all know that the mind plays tricks when it comes to long term memories, and that maybe the actual guilty party in a traumatic event, might be substituted by entirely the wrong person in recall. All of this makes it extremely unwise to automatically believe one party's account of events and subject the accused to trial by media, usually causing them great and prolonged stress and worry, as well as their reputation being permanently damaged. 

Incidentally, of course, it's not just Kavanaugh. There are other well known cases of false accusations - Cliff Richard and Bill Roache come immediately to mind. What makes those cases worse is that the accuser basks in anonymity, even after the accused has been found to have no case to answer.     

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Have a search for "How We Know Kavanaugh Is Lying" by Current Affairs. It's a long read (my saved version is over half a megabyte) but the evidence presented is pretty convincing.

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3 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Have a search for "How We Know Kavanaugh Is Lying" by Current Affairs. It's a long read (my saved version is over half a megabyte) but the evidence presented is pretty convincing.

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On 10/5/2018 at 10:47 PM, Peckris 2 said:

Have a search for "How We Know Kavanaugh Is Lying" by Current Affairs. It's a long read (my saved version is over half a megabyte) but the evidence presented is pretty convincing.

It's incredibly biased, which is not surprising considering the author's political leanings. He looks for every opening possible to highlight Kavanaugh's potential guilt. 

Not necessarily saying that his ultimate conclusions aren't correct, as we still definitively don't know, but they are certainly not impartial, and for that reason, I can't find it convincing.  

If the article had been titled something like "Is Brett Kavanaugh guilty or innocent?", then proceeded to impartially examine both sides of the story and form a conclusion based on what was considered more probable than not after weighing up known facts (balance of probabilities), I'd have been far less sceptical.  

 

Edited by 1949threepence
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He probably is guilty, but my point is that I don't personally consider guesswork to be sufficient basis for taking someone's career off track. 

Edited by 1949threepence

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The whole situation would considerably more palatable if political affiliation was a bar to any position of judge in the Supreme Court. It's a one way ticket to legitimising or suppressing political dirty laundry.

Edited by Rob
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