Shillings & Florins in circ. after 1971

[Viccy Penny 3]

Recently found out that the sixpence survived until 1980. Apparently it was useful for the London Underground & parking meters because it was the standard fare (old sixpence being 2 1/2 new pence. 

But with decimal 1/2ps, 1ps and 2ps, I find it a little hard to believe it was that useful a coin, though I do think it is nice it survived a bit longer because of it's folklore status (which itself probably helped it survive). 

[Peckris 2 2,044]

On 5 March 2019 at 3:16 AM, Viccy Penny said:

Recently found out that the sixpence survived until 1980. Apparently it was useful for the London Underground & parking meters because it was the standard fare (old sixpence being 2 1/2 new pence. 

But with decimal 1/2ps, 1ps and 2ps, I find it a little hard to believe it was that useful a coin, though I do think it is nice it survived a bit longer because of it's folklore status (which itself probably helped it survive). 

That's exactly why it survived - there was a big public protest at its imminent demise (it was to disappear in 1971), so the Mint relented and it hung on for another 9 years.

It all goes to make the story of decimalisation even longer and more complex. And that's without the ridiculous theory - STILL being touted in a Facebook nostalgia group - that decimalisation caused 70s inflation!!!

[blakeyboy 1,603]

I've just remembered something- in the early '70s, in the Midlands, I suddenly found  that there were a lot of florins in EF+

turning up in change, all strangely dated 1941 to 1946. I mean a surprising amount- I had no money then, but still managed to grab

probably 50+ over a couple of years.  I never worked out exactly why- just one person having a clearcut by dumping their odd collection?

Why such good condition, when the list value even then was way above face, even without the silver content?

Does this ring any bells?

[Rob 3,002]

Probably bags of them found in a bank vault. I know a former bank manager who acquired some halfcrowns following a discovery in a vault. They would have been on the bank's books at face value and presumably it would have been unethical to sell them on at a profit.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Rob

[Viccy Penny 3]

In the Coin Yearbook 2019 there is quite a good article about the decimalisation, a critique of the process which obviously is easier with benefit of hindsight. Don't have it to hand right now but I believe the article is of the opinion that having shillings & florins still around in 1990s was just a bit silly, and that the weight-to-value concept of coins should have been scrapped in 1971, allowing smaller & cheaper 5ps & 10ps from the off and therefore no use for 1s and 2s. Also would have meant the decimal halfpence could not have been so tiddly.   

[Peckris 2 2,044]

11 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I've just remembered something- in the early '70s, in the Midlands, I suddenly found  that there were a lot of florins in EF+

turning up in change, all strangely dated 1941 to 1946. I mean a surprising amount- I had no money then, but still managed to grab

probably 50+ over a couple of years.  I never worked out exactly why- just one person having a clearcut by dumping their odd collection?

Why such good condition, when the list value even then was way above face, even without the silver content?

Does this ring any bells?

I think  the "list value" in the early 70s was very much nominal-only - your chances of getting even half that from a dealer was nil. However, what is surprising is that pre-47 silver was being bought even then at ?twice ?4x face value, in any condition, so whoever put them into circulation obviously didn't realise this.

I do remember the occasional high grade florin turning up, as I was a Birmingham student 70-73, but not in the quantity you saw.

 

8 hours ago, Viccy Penny said:

In the Coin Yearbook 2019 there is quite a good article about the decimalisation, a critique of the process which obviously is easier with benefit of hindsight. Don't have it to hand right now but I believe the article is of the opinion that having shillings & florins still around in 1990s was just a bit silly, and that the weight-to-value concept of coins should have been scrapped in 1971, allowing smaller & cheaper 5ps & 10ps from the off and therefore no use for 1s and 2s. Also would have meant the decimal halfpence could not have been so tiddly.   

The whole point of florins and shillings being the same size was that their value equated exactly to 10p and 5p, which meant that they could be introduced from 1968 and got the public used to decimals 3 years before D-Day, making the transition gradual and much easier. The cost of production was absolutely not relevant at that time, but  when their intrinsic value began to exceed their face value (and remember how rampant 70s inflation was; 1967-68 RPI bore no relation to 1990 RPI) then the Mint took the obvious step of reducing the size of all CuNi from 1990-1997. The old shilling vanished in 1990, and the florin 2 years later, so if the article says "having shillings & florins still around in 1990s was just a bit silly", it's barely even true!

I'm very surprised that Coin News should not understand this. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Peckris 2

[1949threepence 3,366]

On 3/6/2019 at 11:40 PM, blakeyboy said:

I've just remembered something- in the early '70s, in the Midlands, I suddenly found  that there were a lot of florins in EF+

turning up in change, all strangely dated 1941 to 1946. I mean a surprising amount- I had no money then, but still managed to grab

probably 50+ over a couple of years.  I never worked out exactly why- just one person having a clearcut by dumping their odd collection?

Why such good condition, when the list value even then was way above face, even without the silver content?

Does this ring any bells?

That's actually really interesting. If you personally managed to gather over 50 in EF+ condition over a 2 year period, it would suggest that a very large number had suddenly entered circulation many years after originally being minted, as other people would have similarly received the same sort of number. Sounds to me like a local phenomena - maybe a small town? Somebody clearing out a collection would surely have had only a very tiny impact, given the sheer volume of same denomination coinage in circulation. A few large bank bags? - well maybe, but that would pre-suppose that the majority of the released coins circulated for a long time purely within the local area. Maybe they did.

If, say, some of the bags had been issued in request for change by local traders, I'm surprised that one of them didn't contact the media in an "interesting story" kind of way, which might well have led to somebody contacting the bank concerned for comment. All in one bag, they couldn't possibly have missed the significance. Perhaps they were just mixed in with all the rest.

 

       

     

[1949threepence 3,366]

On 3/7/2019 at 1:45 AM, Viccy Penny said:

In the Coin Yearbook 2019 there is quite a good article about the decimalisation, a critique of the process which obviously is easier with benefit of hindsight. Don't have it to hand right now but I believe the article is of the opinion that having shillings & florins still around in 1990s was just a bit silly, and that the weight-to-value concept of coins should have been scrapped in 1971, allowing smaller & cheaper 5ps & 10ps from the off and therefore no use for 1s and 2s. Also would have meant the decimal halfpence could not have been so tiddly.   

Indeed. A worthwhile read. It's called "Decimal Dilemma A critique of the UK's decimalisation process". The author is Philip McLoughlin", and it starts on page 17.  

I think the author was indicating that allowing large sized 5p's and 10p's, along with the same sized shillings and florins, to circulate for so long after decimalisation, was not good. Especially as the 20p and round pound were introduced a good 7 or 8 years before demonetisation of the former came into effect. But I might have another read. 

Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't read the article before.   

[blakeyboy 1,603]

This did happen in just one town- Kidderminster.

I was 'helping' to run the school Tuck Shop, but of course was just there to go through all the change...

The first turning up was a surprise, but over the months it was just bizarre.

There was still a lot of silver in the change- I remember a 1912 shilling turning up, 

but it was the condition that was amazing- sometimes almost BU- blazing lustre,

with all the other kids not seeming to notice...really odd.

[1949threepence 3,366]

27 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

This did happen in just one town- Kidderminster.

I was 'helping' to run the school Tuck Shop, but of course was just there to go through all the change...

The first turning up was a surprise, but over the months it was just bizarre.

There was still a lot of silver in the change- I remember a 1912 shilling turning up, 

but it was the condition that was amazing- sometimes almost BU- blazing lustre,

with all the other kids not seeming to notice...really odd.

Like you, I'd have noticed immediately. 

 

[copper123 1,352]

I was not just that, with the industial devestation in the north a but of luck was needed as well - I was very lucky I sailed though the major and thatcher years and only claimed a weeks unemployment benefit admitedly I was never on good wages but I was gainfully employed as they say

Edited March 8, 2019 by copper123

[Peckris 2 2,044]

13 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I think the author was indicating that allowing large sized 5p's and 10p's, along with the same sized shillings and florins, to circulate for so long after decimalisation, was not good. Especially as the 20p and round pound were introduced a good 7 or 8 years before demonetisation of the former came into effect. But I might have another read. 

My reply above deals with this.

[Viccy Penny 3]

Ok I have had another look at the Coin News article and I if understand it correctly, the author's opinion is that:

* The weight-to-value concept should have been abandoned for decimal coins.

* The 5p and 10p should have been issued early, but smaller in size than their pre-decimal equivalents, whilst sharing the same till space. 

* Abandoning the weight-to-value concept would have allowed a 20p coin to be introduced from the outset. (would have been massive if 2x weight of florin).

* The retention of the pre-decimal coins long after their system's demise gave the impression of a complacent and inefficient Britain. 

[ozjohn 552]

A double florin? First issued in 1887.

[Peckris 2 2,044]

10 hours ago, Viccy Penny said:

Ok I have had another look at the Coin News article and I if understand it correctly, the author's opinion is that:

* The weight-to-value concept should have been abandoned for decimal coins.

* The 5p and 10p should have been issued early, but smaller in size than their pre-decimal equivalents, whilst sharing the same till space. 

* Abandoning the weight-to-value concept would have allowed a 20p coin to be introduced from the outset. (would have been massive if 2x weight of florin).

* The retention of the pre-decimal coins long after their system's demise gave the impression of a complacent and inefficient Britain. 

I understand, but this is all in hindsight. We forget the mammoth task involved in getting the public used to decimalisation after a lifetime with £sd. The whole point - really, the WHOLE POINT! - of having 5p and 10p the same size as shillings and florins was to introduce the first two decimal denominations seamlessly, so people could get used to them side by side with their £sd equivalents. The weight-to-value principle was abandoned in the early 90s, so the only real argument is whether it should have been done before then?

"The retention of the pre-decimal coins long after their system's demise gave the impression of a complacent and inefficient Britain"  Has the author given a source for this? Speaking for myself, I have never ever heard that argument before. 

[Viccy Penny 3]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

I understand, but this is all in hindsight. We forget the mammoth task involved in getting the public used to decimalisation after a lifetime with £sd. The whole point - really, the WHOLE POINT! - of having 5p and 10p the same size as shillings and florins was to introduce the first two decimal denominations seamlessly, so people could get used to them side by side with their £sd equivalents. The weight-to-value principle was abandoned in the early 90s, so the only real argument is whether it should have been done before then?

"The retention of the pre-decimal coins long after their system's demise gave the impression of a complacent and inefficient Britain"  Has the author given a source for this? Speaking for myself, I have never ever heard that argument before. 

I respect your point - having 5ps and 10ps the same size as shillings and florins was a very good way to ease into decimalisation - and I am sure the author of the article (Philip McLoughin) would agree too. In the article he does say that he is suggesting an ideal plan, with the benefit of hindsight.  

[Viccy Penny 3]

Regarding the issue of shillings & florins still being around circa 1990, seeming 'complacent & inefficient', dosen't seem like the author gives any source, but personally I sort of agree with him.

He says that the pre-decimal remnants (and also the redundant use of 'NEW' on older coins),  " often puzzled foreigners and children alike " , which kind of makes sense if you think about it, to see an old 10p (or florin) next to a much smaller and lighter 20p must have seemed strange.   

[1949threepence 3,366]

1 hour ago, Viccy Penny said:

Regarding the issue of shillings & florins still being around circa 1990, seeming 'complacent & inefficient', dosen't seem like the author gives any source, but personally I sort of agree with him.

He says that the pre-decimal remnants (and also the redundant use of 'NEW' on older coins),  " often puzzled foreigners and children alike " , which kind of makes sense if you think about it, to see an old 10p (or florin) next to a much smaller and lighter 20p must have seemed strange.   

I was a child in the 1980's and it didn't puzzle me. Not exactly rocket science, even at a very young age, to know that the two same sized coins meant the same amount, 5p and 10p - and it was explained to me what the distinction was, and the history behind them as well as the word "new", both by my parents and (at some point) at school.  

You only need to have something like that explained to you once, and it sticks for all time. 

It didn't actually make any difference to anybody, as I recall. Everybody knew what they were and it wasn't an issue. Not even a talking point. It may have confused some foreigners, possibly, but I'm sure they would soon have learnt what they were.  

By the way, what you quoted wasn't strictly accurate. He actually said: "However tourists and children were sometimes confused by these strange pre-decimal remnants" 

[ozjohn 552]

As it happens 3 pre 1920 florins contain 1 oz. of silver which was worth about 15/- at the time. For post 1920  3 florins  are worth about 7s 6d. Giving a premium of 1s 6d. At the time I remember dealers offering  twice face value for scrap pre 1920 silver coins. I cannot remember any premium offered for post 1920 silver coins but it probably encouraged people to hoard them. Neither did it clean up the pre 1920 silver coins given the amount that still seem to be around.

[Rob 3,002]

2 hours ago, Viccy Penny said:

He says that the pre-decimal remnants (and also the redundant use of 'NEW' on older coins),  " often puzzled foreigners and children alike " , which kind of makes sense if you think about it, to see an old 10p (or florin) next to a much smaller and lighter 20p must have seemed strange.   

Many countries have used the word 'New' following a recoinage, with India and Israel immediately coming to mind.

As for the retained use of the same large flans, it is quite helpful to have this as it requires no changeover for meters, and there were a large number of those across the country. e.g. Many houses had a gas meter. Many countries also have or have had smaller sized larger denominations, particularly at the changeover from the low denomination base metal coins to the higher value silver ones.

[Peckris 2 2,044]

12 minutes ago, Rob said:

As for the retained use of the same large flans, it is quite helpful to have this as it requires no changeover for meters, and there were a large number of those across the country. e.g. Many houses had a gas meter. Many countries also have or have had smaller sized larger denominations, particularly at the changeover from the low denomination base metal coins to the higher value silver ones.

Yes, good point - I'd forgotten the meter / vending machine factor, which made things a LOT easier for businesses during the changeover. Of course, the 50p presented its own problems in 1969 but at least it wasn't replacing '10 bob note' machines. As for phone boxes, I can't remember what the upgrade was for them - it was 4d pre-decimalisation, so I think they were gradually upgraded to take 2p instead, though I'm not sure what the timescale was : the 2p didn't come into effect until February 71 and the 1d was demonetised in August 71, so I'm guessing the GPO (or perhaps BT already by then?) went round like mad things upgrading phone boxes in those few months. 

[jaggy 528]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

I was a child in the 1980's and it didn't puzzle me. Not exactly rocket science, even at a very young age, to know that the two same sized coins meant the same amount, 5p and 10p - and it was explained to me what the distinction was, and the history behind them as well as the word "new", both by my parents and (at some point) at school.  

You only need to have something like that explained to you once, and it sticks for all time. 

It didn't actually make any difference to anybody, as I recall. Everybody knew what they were and it wasn't an issue. Not even a talking point. It may have confused some foreigners, possibly, but I'm sure they would soon have learnt what they were.  

By the way, what you quoted wasn't strictly accurate. He actually said: "However tourists and children were sometimes confused by these strange pre-decimal remnants" 

I was 16 when we switched over and can remember that day quite distinctly. I had worked in Woolies the year before with all transactions being in the old money. Any confusion tended to be older people rather than younger ones. For us the conversion was pretty much seamless. 

[jaggy 528]

7 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, good point - I'd forgotten the meter / vending machine factor, which made things a LOT easier for businesses during the changeover. Of course, the 50p presented its own problems in 1969 but at least it wasn't replacing '10 bob note' machines. As for phone boxes, I can't remember what the upgrade was for them - it was 4d pre-decimalisation, so I think they were gradually upgraded to take 2p instead, though I'm not sure what the timescale was : the 2p didn't come into effect until February 71 and the 1d was demonetised in August 71, so I'm guessing the GPO (or perhaps BT already by then?) went round like mad things upgrading phone boxes in those few months. 

10/- was a lot of money in 1971 and I cannot remember any vending machine which took the new 50p coins. Electricity meters were usually 1/- (5p) although, as a student, I do remember my meter taking 10p coins. I know there were cigarette vending machines but, as a non (never) smoker, I have no idea what they took.

Edited March 14, 2019 by jaggy

[Rob 3,002]

I concur. As one of the last children taught both imperial and metric systems in parallel, mental numerical agility came as second nature. 2.4 old pence to a new penny - no problem.

[jaggy 528]

Just now, Rob said:

I concur. As one of the last children taught both imperial and metric systems in parallel, mental numerical agility came as second nature. 2.4 old pence to a new penny - no problem.

Yes, working in Woolies with the old money and non-electronic registers, you had to be able to count in the old money and you had to get it right because the customers could all count too.

And a pint was 1/11d, so less than 10p.