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Madness

An Interesting (to Me) 1787 Sixpence

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I recently purchased a 1787 sixpence from Michael Gouby  graded at aEF.  I don't consider it to be the prettiest of pieces, but was attracted by an interesting detail:

tTROmMh.gif

 

I'm sure it's very apparent to you that there is a funny curved line between the top and bottom of the first "I" in "III".  I'm pretty confident that this is an overstrike of sorts.  My theory is that the die maker started to strike "Dei" straight after "Georgius" in a momentary lapse of concentration.  Immediately noticing his error he corrected it by filling in the curved section of the "D", leaving an "I".  In the process of filling he missed a very small fraction running along the edge of the "D"s curve, which resulted in the small, thin raised line you see.  

I was encouraged to do some research and so over the course of a couple of days I looked at several hundred images of 1787 sixpences.  Basically, I looked at every reference and image to the 1787 sixpence that Google brought up directly and then some.  Out of these I found nine definite matches with the same issue.  If the sample I looked at was representative of the entire issue, slightly more than 2% have this identifying feature.  Not only was the I/D overstrike there, but each coin shared several other anomalies indicating they were all from the same die:  Die pitting to the left of the hair ribbon, die pitting in the corner of the mouth, a mark underneath the eyebrow and the precise position of the legend lettering.  The 2% figure is consistent with the number of dies produced for the minting of the 1787 shilling (see the Manville/Gaspar article)  .  

Coincidentally, this die was used to produce a (presumably) very small number of coins on a heavy pure silver flan.  Here's  one of the two examples I came across:

ZIiCQnn.jpg

 

In one of these two examples it was described as a proof.  I don't think this is the case.  Although the edge is plain, there is no toothing around the edge as there are in the September proofs struck by Pingo.  Moreover, there is bifurcation of the bottom of the lettering.  This all indicates that the coin was struck without a collar (proofs were made with a collar)  and the edge wasn't milled as you would expect with a circulation coin.  An odd hybrid.  I can't imagine that a die in poor condition like this would ever be used for a proof either: The pitting of the die; The D/I; The error on the "E" of "Dei" (which seems to have been corrected on the circulated sixpences produced from this die).  There doesn't appear to have been any special preparation of the blank's surface either. There's no way that this is a proof.  

I'm only very new to numismatics, but here's my theory of the existence of a heavy flan struck with this die.  The end of the order was approaching, but the mint was running short on workable dies.  They dug out a die from the metaphorical bottom draw that had been put there because of the D/I and "E" errors, but it had accumulated some surface blemishes (small rust pits maybe).  Wanting to test whether they could use it, a few test strikes were made using a thicker blank they had to hand so as to differentiate it for the circulation coins.  No need to mill the edge as it wasn't meant to be used.  Somehow is escaped being melted down again and escaped into the wild.  

Do you think my theory has any possibility of holding water?  

Anyway, I bought the first coin pictured from Michael for 55 GBP.  I was tempted to bid on this sixpence currently listed for the upcoming DNW auction.  

EdN8kTo.jpg

It has an estimate of 200-300 GBP, which is out of my reach at the moment.  Very happy to have the example I bought from Michael, though.  

 

 

Edited by Madness
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Nearer VF than EF I would've thought?

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I thought so too @Michael-Roo  The grading is Michael Gouby's, not mine.  I trust his opinion more than my own, though. 

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I think you’ve done some important research here, and if DNW are happy it’s an I over D then I wouldn’t argue and you’ve got one. Nice. Just need some of the commoner versions now.

Jerry

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7 hours ago, jelida said:

I think you’ve done some important research here, and if DNW are happy it’s an I over D then I wouldn’t argue and you’ve got one. Nice. Just need some of the commoner versions now.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry

I used the money from my guinea sale to buy this 1787 shilling, which I won at the Davissons auction that just ended:

https://davcoin.com/lot/e-auction-26-lot-89

Looking forward to expanding my 1787 sixpences as well (in time), including run of the mill varieties.  

 

Edited by Madness
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10 hours ago, Madness said:

I thought so too @Michael-Roo  The grading is Michael Gouby's, not mine.  I trust his opinion more than my own, though. 

Being a dealer doesn't mean a person is automatically infallible. I see Stu (Coinery) agrees with me.

The coin is VF.

Cool overstrike though!

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26 minutes ago, Michael-Roo said:

Being a dealer doesn't mean a person is automatically infallible. I see Stu (Coinery) agrees with me.

The coin is VF.

Cool overstrike though!

Yes, nice bit of research, Madness, you’ve put in some leg work which is always nice to see AND read.

As Mick has said, even the dealers have off or lazy/tired days, and I’d say this was one of them for Michael G. Having said that, when you finally get this variety into print, you’ll be ahead of the gold rush with your regular-priced acquisition of the I/D variety! :) 

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In case anyone is interested, here are my sources of images for I/D 1787 sixpences, some of which are for sale:

https://www.gbclassiccoins.co.uk/shop/sixpences/1787-george-iii-early-milled-silver-sixpence-no-hearts-near-ef-2/

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Great-Britain-1787-George-111-Sixpence-Without-Hearts-EF-gVF-/142907377281?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137   (sold on eBay apparently and so link redirects you.  You have to click "see original item")

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1787-GEORGE-III-SILVER-SIXPENCE-WITH-HEARTS-GOOD-VERY-FINE-OR-BETTER-CONDITION/152522895551?hash=item238312b0bf:g:kMkAAOSwVm5Y~dBd  The overstrike isn't very clear here, but the other marks of the same die are evident.  Pretty confident this is an example on that basis.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1787-KING-GEORGE-III-GREAT-BRITAIN-SILVER-SHILLING-AND-SIXPENCE-/253803827617?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137  (Again, this has apparently sold on eBay and the link redirects.  Click on "see original item".

https://townhallcoins.com/products/gb-1787-sixpence-vf

https://www.baldwin.co.uk/coins/great-britain/british-patterns-and-proofs/george-iii-rare-proof-sixpence-1787.html  (Described as proof, but this is just a heavy-flan test piece in my opinion)

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/great-britain-george-iii-proof-sixpence-1787-/a/3032-31906.s  (again, heavy-flan piece, not proof)

Add to these the coin that I purchased from Michael, the "heavy-flan example" in the first post and the link to the DNW auction in the first post, that makes ten examples in total.  I made a mistake in my first post, as I remembered having come across another heavy-flan example, making three of these and seven circulation coins.  

Another couple of points of interest are that the I/D obverse is always paired with the same reverse die.  You can tell by the flaw on the "D" in the legend that's at the 2 o'clock position.  I also suspect that the "8" in "1787" is upside down, but need to look into this further.  

 

Edited by Madness
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1 hour ago, Coinery said:

Yes, nice bit of research, Madness, you’ve put in some leg work which is always nice to see AND read.

As Mick has said, even the dealers have off or lazy/tired days, and I’d say this was one of them for Michael G. Having said that, when you finally get this variety into print, you’ll be ahead of the gold rush with your regular-priced acquisition of the I/D variety! :) 

I wonder how much of the grading is done by Michael these days. On the Micheal Coins website, it says that "Michael is helping with the orders received by Michael Coin Ltd. However, he is doing this now in a more relaxed way as he is semi-retired he and his wife are taking more 'time out' !" I think it is possible that Michael Coins is more of a brand rather than about Michael G himself.

 

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6 minutes ago, Sword said:

I wonder how much of the grading is done by Michael these days. On the Micheal Coins website, it says that "Michael is helping with the orders received by Michael Coin Ltd. However, he is doing this now in a more relaxed way as he is semi-retired he and his wife are taking more 'time out' !" I think it is possible that Michael Coins is more of a brand rather than about Michael G himself.

 

In the process of buying two coins from Michael recently we exchanged a couple of emails a day.  In the process he revised the grade of the 1787 shilling down from pAS to EF+, indicative of his current grading activities.  Despite what the website says, he seems to be actively involved in all aspects of the business.   

I recently asked him to keep me in mind if he ever found a "1-over-upside-down-1" 1787 shilling, and he stated that he wasn't actively looking to increase his stock. So, yes, he seems to be semi-retired and living/working in Reading.  

Edited by Madness

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Just want to make it clear that I didn't "discover" the overstrike.  I saw the DNW auction listing, was interested and decided to investigate further at the suggestion of @Peckris 2.  Just wanted to verify that it was a genuine overstrike, determine how rare it was and try to work out how much it was really worth.  This hobby is teaching me to be less trusting of people.  Hmm.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

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1 hour ago, Madness said:

Just want to make it clear that I didn't "discover" the overstrike.  I saw the DNW auction listing, was interested and decided to investigate further at the suggestion of @Peckris 2.  Just wanted to verify that it was a genuine overstrike, determine how rare it was and try to work out how much it was really worth.  This hobby is teaching me to be less trusting of people.  Hmm.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Oh, you can trust me... :lol:

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5 hours ago, Madness said:

Just want to make it clear that I didn't "discover" the overstrike.  I saw the DNW auction listing, was interested and decided to investigate further at the suggestion of @Peckris 2.  Just wanted to verify that it was a genuine overstrike, determine how rare it was and try to work out how much it was really worth.  This hobby is teaching me to be less trusting of people.  Hmm.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Who are you distrusting and why? I’d only put my own judgement on my list. :)

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37 minutes ago, Coinery said:

Who are you distrusting and why? I’d only put my own judgement on my list. :)

Ebay sellers? Sellers previously unknown to you? 

 

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4 minutes ago, Sword said:

Ebay sellers? Sellers previously unknown to you? 

 

Indeed, I agree with both of those, but in the context of this thread I was just wondering what put madness into a place of saying ‘this hobby is teaching me to be less trusting of people?’ 

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My first experience was buying a guinea graded by the eBay seller as good very fine.  It was a piece of crap worth only its value in bullion.  

The research was part of an effort to ensure that I wasn't ripped off again. 

There are many trust worthy people here, but part of the learning process is learning to know who to trust.  

I appreciate all advice on this forum and thoroughly enjoy my interactions here.  I've come to Pre-decimal to learn, which implies I trust you, which I do! 

Thanks everyone for all your help.  😊

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Well, for what it’s worth, your I/D exploration was great, as it is also great that you are learning so much, and so quickly.

Re your Guinea...if you bought it from eBay without knowledge, I’d be happy that I’d even acquired a genuine gold article to be honest. Little consolation, I know, but you’re clearly getting there, and we’ve all done it.

The very best of knowledge and successes to you, madness! 👍

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To be honest, I'm enjoying the research as much as the actual collecting, if not more.  My wife is recognising this and has agreed to effectively double my hobby budget to the equivalent of 100 GBP per month.  I'll be spending some of this on books.  Have my eye on three at the moment:

  • Bull - English Silver Coinage Since 1649
  • Peck - English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958
  • Spink - Coins of England & The United Kingdom - Pre-Decimal Issue

Do you think these will be useful resources? Can you recommend any other "must-haves"?

I was also able to track down a copy of Cooper's "The Art and Craft of Coinmaking: A History of Minting Technology" that I was able to borrow from the State Library of NSW.  Slowly working my way through this.  If I could find a copy at a reasonable price I'd probably buy this as well.  

The books will have to wait until next year.  I've got my eye on two more coins from the September auctions and @Rob has kindly kept a "no-stops-at-date" 1787 Shilling that he has put aside for me until later in the year.  

 

Edited by Madness

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Given the current direction of your collecting, for the first time I would say these are not very useful books, though all three are useful resources for any expansion in your collecting habits and for general reading around the question of what coins are available. You have already identified the coins you need, so any articles you can find about coins or coin types on your list would be of more use - such as the BNJ article you have on 1787 shillings and sixpences.

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I'd agree with Rob, except to add that Spink is only about 25 UK£ and might be a useful reference, as even when the prices are out of date it's still a good reference to all types of English coin from Celtic and Roman on.

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14 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

I'd agree with Rob, except to add that Spink is only about 25 UK£ and might be a useful reference, as even when the prices are out of date it's still a good reference to all types of English coin from Celtic and Roman on.

Actually you can get the 2018 Spink book, including the decimal supplement, for £21 including free postage on Ebay at the moment.

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2 hours ago, Paddy said:

Actually you can get the 2018 Spink book, including the decimal supplement, for £21 including free postage on Ebay at the moment.

I meant to say Amazon - I got to distracted!

 

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I'm contemplating bidding on the DNW I/D and am going to sell some stuff on eBay to fund it.  This will include selling the example I bought from Michael.  I paid 55 GBP for it described as aEF.  Considering it's only VF, how much do you think I should list if for on eBay?  What does Spink say?  Do you think the idiosyncrasies should increase the amount I ask for it?  How much should I bid for the DNW example?  

I guess all this stuff is unknown and unknowable.  

Edited by Madness

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Never mind.  I'd need to sell the sixpence I have to buy the sixpence I want.  If I lost the auction I'd be left with no example of the I/D.  Forget I said anything.  

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