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Madness

Silliness of the "Un-researched Purchase" Variety

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1 hour ago, Madness said:

My 1794 spade guinea arrived today.  Crap photos.  Not surprising as I'm a crap photographer using a mediocre phone!

fhqjzie.jpg?1

 

Lla4yXr.jpg?1

 

There's a ton of wear on the obverse and a little less on the reverse.  This book that I bought last week states the following:

"The lack of high relief on the guinea means that, to the naked eye, there is not much detail remaining in coins graded Very Fine or Extremely Fine, and the amount of lustre is an important indication of the degree to which a coin has been in circulation."

Is this statement true?  The most obvious wear on this example is certainly to the laurel wreath (the high point of the obverse) and George's hair.  If so, the seller is possibly correct in grading it gVF.  I would have called it F without reading this.  

Do you think the coin has been dipped?  Not sure what gold coins should look like in regards to toning/lustre.  Image makes the coin look white-ish.  It's actually more gold-ish IRL.

Thanks!

 

 

I also only have limited gold I do have a couple of guineas of similar age and a half guinea to go on both with the same obverse.  I also think it is a bit too much for what you have there in those pictures and it does look as if it has been cleaned.  Did the seller say it looked polished or cleaned?  I may be wrong but it also may have been mounted and removed at some point take a very close look at the area above the shield and the same place on the obverse see if there is any evidence in your hand.  I think when buying a lot of these gold GIII's many show mount removed scars I have one mounted on a neat little clasp which I keep for grading.  I also would think it fine 

But I think you should look carefully at the "top" of the coin.  If it were mine I would return it on the basis of either I don't like it or as I think may well be the case I would get a return based on it having been polished and possible mount removed. They can often be skillfully removed 

CM180725-093245002.jpg

Edited by DrLarry

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Thanks everyone for your comments and advice.  Based and this and further scrutiny, I can imagine an aspiring middle-class lady wearing the coin as a pendant and rubbing GIII's face with a cloth every now and then.  The mount, assuming there was one, has been very cleanly removed and the coin bears only a minor scar from the experience.  

I think I'll keep it.  Firstly, because I hate confrontation.  Secondly, because I think the coin tells a nice story.  My Proclamation collection will be small and is all about stories, primarily the tale of the economy, trade, currency and society in early colonial Australia.  Thirdly, it's a constant reminder that I need to be careful in my selection of coins. I intend to never make the same mistake again.  

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7 minutes ago, Madness said:

Thanks everyone for your comments and advice.  Based and this and further scrutiny, I can imagine an aspiring middle-class lady wearing the coin as a pendant and rubbing GIII's face with a cloth every now and then.  The mount, assuming there was one, has been very cleanly removed and the coin bears only a minor scar from the experience.  

I think I'll keep it.  Firstly, because I hate confrontation.  Secondly, because I think the coin tells a nice story.  My Proclamation collection will be small and is all about stories, primarily the tale of the economy, trade, currency and society in early colonial Australia.  Thirdly, it's a constant reminder that I need to be careful in my selection of coins. I intend to never make the same mistake again.  

If you are happy with that then that is a resolution. I would however write to the seller if it was on e bay and say without expectation of a result (non confrontational) a summary of the thoughts of us all.  You might at the very least get a partial refund I would think if mounted it is worth around £280 - 250.  Confrontation is hard I would feel it more if the person was an independent seller if the purchase was from a dealer I would have not the slightest hesitation of telling them directly.  If the mount is there or was for your £140 refund you could buy yourself a lot of books and other coins.  In my experience most dealers know full well that a clasp has been removed, the tell tale sign is the reeding around the edge which is often missing or you can tell it has been redone with a tool.  It is a sad reflection of things that I am afraid confrontation seems to be a large part of this strange new hobby you have decided upon, perhaps see it as a skill development, assertion of fact is not confrontation merely a direct statement of the circumstances.   If you can prove the clasp removal with good pictures you should open a return case in my opinion E BAY are excellent at forcing a statement by the seller even if it takes the full period of resolution 30 days you will get all your money back and he /she will have to pay the return costs. With £420 you could achieve a lot .  

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I would have a think first and  would send it back if its not right there is know confrontation if you bought it from a dealer .Your collecting interest may change in the future and might then have to take a loss ,should you sell it.

There are plenty coins to choose from ,unless its a scarce one and better to have ones your happy with.

If you are happy though it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks :)

Edited by PWA 1967
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Thanks @DrLarry and @PWA 1967

 

Edited by Madness

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A coin has history always and no matter which one your choose this will be the case.  As you can see I have no concern about clasps on my coins it is part of their history but think of yourself having made a contract on some other purchase in your life if something is faulty I am sure you would take it back to the shop.  Most opinions of others are just that and it is hard to identify fast rules on what constitutes as "fawlty" faulty the description, the grade, whether polished or cleaned, or mount removed and tooled.  I tend to er on the side of people making honest mistakes I think I made one buying that little farthing as I now believe it to have been tooled...if this is the case I have to approach the dealer and ask them to accept it back £60 is a lot of money for a dud farthing if an 1856 in that condition I would expect to pay £3.  If an E over R then £60 is fine.  If the dealer has purposefully altered the coin or asked others to do it then that is fraud.  

Edited by DrLarry
spelling of course

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Keep smiling and remember they are only coins ;)

Removed the Quote for Madness ....if it seems a bit random :D

Edited by PWA 1967
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I'll channel my inner Basil and imagine that I'm dealing with the seller of the "Fawlty" coin in this manner:

 

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I totally agree with you.  It is often far less than confrontation it is healthy difference of opinion.  I am novice in so many ways and like you have mental health issue now I would not give up though it has skilled me in so many ways and helped me come through some of the darkest mental health issues post chemo I think it is a perfect hobby all considering your situation allowing concentration and attention to detail which provides a beautiful calmness even in the darkest moments. They are as I often get told off for saying "just shiny bits of metal stamped with pretty pictograms "  but they have the capacity to allow us to reach into history and in doing that they hold an almost magical property.  

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Well said Larry. :)

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1794 guinea, EF or possibly a bit better. Looks nicer in hand without the flash.

c1959 1794 guinea - Copy.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Rob said:

1794 guinea, EF or possibly a bit better. Looks nicer in hand without the flash.

c1959 1794 guinea - Copy.jpg

Beautiful.  Thank you for posting. 

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8 hours ago, Madness said:

Thanks @DrLarry and @PWA 1967

 

Could I be so cheeky to ask you if you would be willing to post a thread in the beginners section on these "proclamation Coins" I would be very interested to learn a little about the topic and as you are doing a lot of reading. I would much rather get the viewpoint of someone starting out than have to read through reams and reams of paper.  I am sure most of the accomplished members know a great deal but I have to admit I know "nada", apart from the fact that there was a change in the the Georgy Bluebloods (and yes I know it was porphyria which is purple not blue )  portrait, I had not even recognised this proclamation coinage title.  I am not sure if you like writing?  if you don't then don't bother , but it is useful to teach others I find, to help make sense of things myself.  For example there is this other date of 1827, 1927 commemoratives which I thought were the historic dates with respect to Australia; hence the need to hurry and get the 1827 penny loaded and the destruction in the shipment.  I like GIII but I could do with a 101 in proclamation.  If you do, don't worry about making mistakes we all do and usually are advised by gentle souls LOL  and errors are part of learning. Much appreciate that you have already raised the topic in your own way already.

best wishes Larry 

Edited by DrLarry
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Feeling confident today.  Have contacted the seller of the coin prior to opening a case against him in eBay.  Thanks for your comments and encouragement @PWA 1967 and @DrLarry.

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Seller agreed to partial refund of $200 AUD (about 110 GBP).  Stated that he already spent the money for medical bills and noted that he needed a couple of weeks to come up with the money.  I have no idea whether he is telling the truth or not (I can be quite gullible) so agreed to put off opening case until 13 August.  Hope that eBay will still let me make a claim within this time frame.

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5 hours ago, Madness said:

Seller agreed to partial refund of $200 AUD (about 110 GBP).  Stated that he already spent the money for medical bills and noted that he needed a couple of weeks to come up with the money.  I have no idea whether he is telling the truth or not (I can be quite gullible) so agreed to put off opening case until 13 August.  Hope that eBay will still let me make a claim within this time frame.

Open the case straight away.  Whether he has already spent the money is his problem, not yours.

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Yes, straight away.

Still pricey at £310. That spade guinea is only worth scrap weight.

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Ditto. The longer you leave it, the less chance of getting your money back.

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1 hour ago, Michael-Roo said:

 

Yes, straight away.

Still pricey at £310. That spade guinea is only worth scrap weight.

:(

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Just now, Madness said:

:(

An expensive mistake to learn from. We will always give you advice on coins for sale, as you're doing with 1787 silver.

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3 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

An expensive mistake to learn from. We will always give you advice on coins for sale, as you're doing with 1787 silver.

I love this place.  A depth of experience from those who are generous with their advice.  Helpful without being patronising.  Thank you gents.

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I think it is a bit of a shame that Peck had to start a new account just to avoid getting the "Forum Legend" title. Perhaps the administrators can allow someone to choose his own title after reaching 10,000 posts? 

I really appreciate reading Peck's posts over the years. Always well-informed and helpful.

legend 2.png

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1 minute ago, Sword said:

I think it is a bit of a shame that Peck had to start a new account just to avoid getting the "Forum Legend" title. Perhaps the administrators can allow someone to choose his own title after reaching 10,000 posts? 

I really appreciate reading Peck's posts over the years. Always well-informed and helpful.

Thanks. :) To be fair to Chris he did look into this for me, and found that if the 'Legend' (or any other status) was changed for me it would change for everyone.

I didn't want to be a 'Legend' when far more deserving members like VickySilver, Tom Goodheart, Dave Groom, 49 Threepence, Coinery etc aren't talkative mouthy people like me, and that's the only reason I'd be a Legend!! (It shouldn't be based on number of posts...)

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6 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Thanks. :) To be fair to Chris he did look into this for me, and found that if the 'Legend' (or any other status) was changed for me it would change for everyone.

I didn't want to be a 'Legend' when far more deserving members like VickySilver, Tom Goodheart, Dave Groom, 49 Threepence, Coinery etc aren't talkative mouthy people like me, and that's the only reason I'd be a Legend!! (It shouldn't be based on number of posts...)

Ah, so that's the reason. 

Well I'm not more deserving than you. Although I'm not a legend, more a leg end :ph34r: 

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36 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Ah, so that's the reason. 

Well I'm not more deserving than you. Although I'm not a legend, more a leg end :ph34r: 

Better than a bell end. :lol:

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