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Madness

Silliness of the "Un-researched Purchase" Variety

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Shut Up, or I'll have a Cardiac Arrest.  My Girl's mad at me, as it is...;)

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21 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

Shut Up, or I'll have a Cardiac Arrest.  My Girl's mad at me, as it is...;)

It must be love :wub:

Its not like that in.....Our house.

Edited by PWA 1967

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Sorry - you've gone One Step beyond...

 

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With this sequence of posts I don't need my baggy trousers: I need my fighting trousers.

https://youtu.be/0iRTB-FTMdk

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I like this XF example of the 1787 shilling:

https://www.sovr.co.uk/coins/great-britain/george-iii-1787-shilling-hearts-bg03046.html

Do you think the price is reasonable?  Will sellers hold coins if you're unable to pay for a while?

 

Edited by Madness

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Nice looking coin but I would say the price is considerably high. It may be "XF" US style but not "EF" UK style. When I get a chance I will look out a spare I think I have which is a similar grade as I recall, and would be a lot less money.

As to holding for you - I don't know. Each dealer is different and it may depend if they know you from previous business. Equally if they have had that one in stock since 2007 I suspect they will delighted in your interest!

 

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16 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Nice looking coin but I would say the price is considerably high. It may be "XF" US style but not "EF" UK style. When I get a chance I will look out a spare I think I have which is a similar grade as I recall, and would be a lot less money.

As to holding for you - I don't know. Each dealer is different and it may depend if they know you from previous business. Equally if they have had that one in stock since 2007 I suspect they will delighted in your interest!

 

Thanks Paddy!  If you have a nice spare I'd be very happy to buy it from you for a reasonable price.  Will need to save, though.  I have a monthly hobby budget of $100 AUD, which is about 55 GBP and have just spent the last of my hobby savings on a couple of numismatic books. 

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7 hours ago, Madness said:

What do you think a reasonable price would be for this example?  Do you agree with an AUNC grading?

https://www.wacoins.com.au/shop/george-iii-1787-great-britain-shilling-aunc-superb/

Thanks again

Absolutely no way is that AUnc - the obverse could be classed EF but the reverse is more like VF. These are NOT RARE!! Hang about and you will see a nice one at a reasonable price.

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On 21/07/2018 at 9:12 AM, Madness said:

Thanks Paddy!  If you have a nice spare I'd be very happy to buy it from you for a reasonable price.  Will need to save, though.  I have a monthly hobby budget of $100 AUD, which is about 55 GBP and have just spent the last of my hobby savings on a couple of numismatic books. 

Excellent decision!  More research, the better.

Welcome to the menagerie, and go and change your armour!!

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Here is an example that is essentially unc with a midge's of cabinet rub to the top left crown orb and the rampant lion where the toning has been removed.

The lis closest to the centre is frequently not as well struck up as the other two, suggesting the problem was with the punch. You do see varying amounts of die fill on the finer detail. There were many 1787 shilling and sixpence dies, so no need to worry unduly about small differences.

c1279-1787 8 over 7 NH NSH shilling - Copy.jpg

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1 hour ago, Rob said:

Here is an example that is essentially unc with a midge's of cabinet rub to the top left crown orb and the rampant lion where the toning has been removed.

 

Thanks Rob.  I'd love to own a coin like that.

Could someone please circle the cabinet wear.  I'm not sure what that means.  Is it evident in the rampant lion in the Hanoverian shield, or in the British shield?  Is the lower level of the "H" for "Hibernia" related to a die problem?  

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36 minutes ago, Madness said:

Could someone please circle the cabinet wear.  I'm not sure what that means.  Is it evident in the rampant lion in the Hanoverian shield, or in the British shield?  Is the lower level of the "H" for "Hibernia" related to a die problem?  

I'm not sure how to add arrows and circles, so here's a lower grade example than the last one, this time with hearts in the Hanoverian shield. On the two top crowns, the orb at the centre point of the crown arches show distinct signs of a flat surface, this feature not seen on the previous example. Also note, the Garter Star at the centre of the reverse has been entered unevenly on the die with the top left quarter less deeply cut. Because this area is weak, it is not possible to say whether the missing rays are due to a failure to enter the design, filled detail, or a combination of both. Given the lack of die fill elsewhere, a weak entry seems more likely but isn't conclusive.

c732 1787WH shilling 1 over inv.1 8 over 7 - Copy.jpg

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What would cause the "grainy" surface on this coin?  It seems closer to "uncirculated" than the other two I've been eyeing off.  Would the mark on the bottom right crown be wear/scratch?  Would you grade this as "extremely fine"?

 

EBay Obverse 1787 Shilling.jpg

EBay Reverse 1787 Shilling.jpg

I've been using the 2014 "Australian Coins and Banknotes" by Greg McDonald as a price guide (it includes this as it's a proclamation coin), which lists EF as $295 AUD and UNC as $450 AUD - 170 and 250 GBP respectively.  Is he barking up the wrong tree as far as values are concerned.

I thought that I might start up a thread showing images of coins and that I'd attempt to grade them.  I'd then ask for people to correct my "guesses".  Do you think anyone here would be willing to help me out with this learning project?

 

 

 

Edited by Madness

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Looks around the EF mark with some wear to the high points, but nothing excesive, and a couple of small contact marks. The grainy surface could be due to chemical etching, or could just be a crap photo. It may have been dipped at some point given the uniformity of colour. I would eliminate rusted dies, because both sides look the same.

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13 hours ago, Madness said:

Thanks Rob.  I'd love to own a coin like that.

Could someone please circle the cabinet wear.  I'm not sure what that means.  Is it evident in the rampant lion in the Hanoverian shield, or in the British shield?  Is the lower level of the "H" for "Hibernia" related to a die problem?  

Cabinet wear - often called "cabinet friction" applies to coins kept in an unlined wooden coin cabinet for long periods of time. It typically manifests on coins in better states of preservation, by showing up as a slightly duller, perhaps vaguely shiny area, usually on the obverse, as most collectors store their coins reverse side up. 

I always used to think it was caused by the coins sliding about when you moved the cabinet, but apparently it really applies to inert coins just kept in the same position for protracted periods of time.

There's a definition here  

Quote

 

Selected term: Cabinet Friction

Explanation: sometimes called 'cabinet wear' or 'cabinet rub' is wear to the higher portions of a coin's design, caused by being kept in an unlined wooden cabinet drawer over a long period of time. Wooden cabinets for coin storage were extensively used by collectors from about 1600 to the late 1800's

 

I don't understand the last sentence of that explanation though, as we still keep coins in wooden cabinets.        

ETA: Happy to be corrected on any of the above. Like @Madness I'm also not 100% sure and am employing some inspired guesswork. 

Edited by 1949threepence
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Any movement whereby one surface rubs against another must cause wear of the softer surface, though initially will likely be imperceptibly light. In time this will cumulatively add up to visible flattening of the highest points. As most materials are not homogenous, you could still get wear to the coin from contact with say microscopic dust particles even if the felt is nominally softer.  Eventually this will be significant enough to impact on the grade. The fibrous nature of felt ensures that the inevitable 3 point contact with two rigid surfaces is alleviated. Rub is rub, irrespective of how it came about.

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16 hours ago, Rob said:

I'm not sure how to add arrows and circles, so here's a lower grade example than the last one, this time with hearts in the Hanoverian shield. On the two top crowns, the orb at the centre point of the crown arches show distinct signs of a flat surface, this feature not seen on the previous example. Also note, the Garter Star at the centre of the reverse has been entered unevenly on the die with the top left quarter less deeply cut. Because this area is weak, it is not possible to say whether the missing rays are due to a failure to enter the design, filled detail, or a combination of both. Given the lack of die fill elsewhere, a weak entry seems more likely but isn't conclusive.

 

Circled stuff :)

cab_rub.jpg

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My 1794 spade guinea arrived today.  Crap photos.  Not surprising as I'm a crap photographer using a mediocre phone!

fhqjzie.jpg?1

 

Lla4yXr.jpg?1

 

There's a ton of wear on the obverse and a little less on the reverse.  This book that I bought last week states the following:

"The lack of high relief on the guinea means that, to the naked eye, there is not much detail remaining in coins graded Very Fine or Extremely Fine, and the amount of lustre is an important indication of the degree to which a coin has been in circulation."

Is this statement true?  The most obvious wear on this example is certainly to the laurel wreath (the high point of the obverse) and George's hair.  If so, the seller is possibly correct in grading it gVF.  I would have called it F without reading this.  

Do you think the coin has been dipped?  Not sure what gold coins should look like in regards to toning/lustre.  Image makes the coin look white-ish.  It's actually more gold-ish IRL.

Thanks!

 

 

Edited by Madness

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6 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Looks polished to me Madness :(

Crap.  Cost me about $750 AUD (about 420 GBP), which represents six months of saving for me.  Overpriced for what it is?  Would you try to return it? 

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I'd grade at near fine for the obverse/fine for the reverse. Only having these photos to go by it is difficult to be certain but Pete's probably right, polished too. Why is it such an odd colour?

In my opinion £420 is too expensive.

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9 minutes ago, Michael-Roo said:

 

I'd grade at near fine for the obverse/fine for the reverse. Only having these photos to go by it is difficult to be certain but Pete's probably right, polished too. Why is it such an odd colour?

In my opinion £420 is too expensive.

It's the photo @Michael-Roo.  Doesn't actually look this colour in real life.  I'll mark today as a learning experience, the sign of a true neophyte.  Will persevere and research all future purchases much more carefully.  Oh, I've learnt to trust empirical evidence rather than a seller's opinion.  

*goes away and cries into pillow*

Edited by Madness

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There isn't a person on here who didn't make a mistake when starting out.

Have a look at this link, you'll see a selection of accurately graded 1794 guineas. Having your coin in hand you'll be able to compare and determine grade better than we can from the photos.

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Guinea+1794&category=9&searchtype=1

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37 minutes ago, Madness said:

Crap.  Cost me about $750 AUD (about 420 GBP), which represents six months of saving for me.  Overpriced for what it is?  Would you try to return it? 

Wait and see what others say.I only collect copper / bronze and just going off your picture :)

Edited by PWA 1967

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