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I think perhaps we should leave Larry alone. He didn't start the offending topic about Water Aid, and the person who did has now apologised for certain statements made attacking other members. To that extent we should draw a line under all this, as it's not serving any purpose.

I doubt that the politics of the majority of members here strike much if any sympathy with me, but this is a coins forum, and we'd be better off banning politics and religion outright. Even in the 'Nothing whatever to do with coins' forum. Here we can meet on a numismatic footing and let's keep it that way. 

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Completely agree. Anything to do with coins has been completely pushed down the ranks of the forum with all this. I am sure there is other websites that cater for this sort of chat. Please draw a line under it. 

 

Edited by Ukstu
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13 minutes ago, Peckris said:

I think perhaps we should leave Larry alone. He didn't start the offending topic about Water Aid, and the person who did has now apologised for certain statements made attacking other members. To that extent we should draw a line under all this, as it's not serving any purpose.

I doubt that the politics of the majority of members here strike much if any sympathy with me, but this is a coins forum, and we'd be better off banning politics and religion outright. Even in the 'Nothing whatever to do with coins' forum. Here we can meet on a numismatic footing and let's keep it that way. 

100% Spot on Peck and could not agree more.

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31 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

It's not reflecting anything. It's merely deflecting away from a point you know you can't logically and factually address. 

No It isn't. I've just checked all the posts in that thread. 

 

ok if you want lots of examples I am happy to look back and somehow come up with an empirical set of defining parameters as to what would define a group of people as right leaning, far right leaning, centrist and left of centre and or far left.  

I will check where the discussion was had for completeness and say in which thread it is in.  

I am also happy to apologise if I said far right leaning when I intended right of centre.  what I actually said is lean far to the right of centre " lean far to the right of centre " the construction is to lean far to the right of centre, that is not to go past right of centre it is to lean far to the right of centre.  It is not an insult for any of your that do lean right of centre I made the contextual association and held in my head the whole football jingoisms, and the ridiculous thread on Penny whoever she is I dont have a clue possibly a page three girl ...from the sun and this is a right of centre paper .  some views on some of these issues and some racists ones I have read together with political comments suggested to me a right slant and not very open minded hence the small C comment 

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12 minutes ago, Ukstu said:

Completely agree. Anything to do with coins has been completely pushed down the ranks of the forum with all this. I am sure there is other websites that cater for this sort of chat. Please draw a line under it. 

 

As a member, I'm inclined to agree.  Larry has voiced his opinion and contributed some useful information about charities.  But this thread is getting to be more about semantics and I'm not sure it's going anywhere.  Please can we get back to discussing coins now?

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I would just love to add (as I skipped a billion words in this topic) that 5 of my closest numismatically accomplished friends are female.

While this forum may currently be a "mans' shed" mentality, it would be very nice if it could be far more inclusive, as many newer collectors are from a much more diverse society than us old dinosaurs, and they will be the ones who continue our great hobby.

I say the above but I have barely broken 50, so I don't feel old, but I know that the baton must be passed, so that all of my collecting will not be in vain or become worthless.

On another note I do however agree that daytime TV adverts can be somewhat repetetive and overbearing, but do not wish to be branded because I have seen them many times and feel that some times you can be exposed to something a little too much.

 

Everyone should, in a free society, have the right to free speech, and alongside that, everyone who enjoys a service provided free by someone else with a vested interest should hopefully respect that freedom wisely.

To everyone, Peace, love and happy collecting.

 

 

Edited by Unwilling Numismatist
I spell like a dictionary in a food blender

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yes also like yourself just at 50, and a little bit, would rather we could encourage new users especially women to use the forum, but also more young people to take up collecting. I have learnt so much in the last 4 years since I started collecting again and as I have said to the group before the skills it has helped me reach up through illness has been priceless to me at least.  I acknowledge I am keen to jump of values I do not hold to and perhaps jump too quickly for as much as we have the right to express views we also must temper them with some consideration I am just shocked by how internet anonymity allows for some pretty distasteful attitudes  .  Whilst we can (I hope) all defend our own positions some may not be able to so political correctness serves a purpose to allow a civil society to be civil.  

Good evening  

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oh and at just past 50 ....I do feel old , but I have had a hard life LOL 

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I hate political correctness.

I do however have a fullly formed appreciation of old fashioned good manners.

My daughters are growing up in a different world to the one I did, and as much as I try to accomodate modern thinking, I struggle with the discrepancy between the new world, and the legacy I inherited from their grandparents.

 

The world moves along, we just enjoy the ride.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

I hate political correctness.

I do however have a fullly formed appreciation of old fashioned good manners.

My daughters are growing up in a different world to the one I did, and as much as I try to accomodate modern thinking, I struggle with the discrepancy between the new world, and the legacy I inherited from their grandparents.

 

The world moves along, we just enjoy the ride.

 

 

Oh for a world where good manners counted but in its more general absence I kid myself political correctness fills in the missing gaps. But it should never stifle open dialogue in the persuit of greater understanding and discovery by asking questions without causing harm to others. Children adapt easier to changes I'm sure. 

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57 minutes ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

My daughters are growing up in a different world to the one I did, and as much as I try to accomodate modern thinking, I struggle with the discrepancy between the new world, and the legacy I inherited from their grandparents.

As a 73 year old growing up in immediate post war Liverpool, with bomb sites, outdoor plumbing and rationing; I know my grandchildren will never really understand what makes me tick.

 I’ve been doing quite a bit of family research recently, lots of dates and facts, but I will never really comprehend the lives my ancestors lived.

Probably why, although we may study history, humanity rarely takes any lessons from It,  and relies on a cosy rose tinted nostalgia for the “good old days”

 

Edited by davidrj
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11 hours ago, DrLarry said:

most of them would rather have freedom in a mess (your view) than to be controlled herded and disenfranchised , if you believe that freedom and democracy have such little value and your view is based on economics then I rest my case.

Which is exactly why I voted Brexit, along with just over half the voter total, the majority left leaning. Stuff economics, democracy and self-determination is what really counts, for better or worse.

Oops, another contentious topic. Slap on wrist! 

Jerry

 

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30 minutes ago, jelida said:

Which is exactly why I voted Brexit, along with just over half the voter total, the majority left leaning. Stuff economics, democracy and self-determination is what really counts, for better or worse.

Oops, another contentious topic. Slap on wrist! 

Jerry

 

LOL  yes I will side swipe that and ask you did you take a look at the 1860 ??? Bover ?  I put images up for you ?  stay concentrated on the matter of coining.

I of course voted remain because the unnatural order of things is to try to make alliances and share within a geographic space and of course I liked being part of something bigger as a European it got us a little closer to being a heterogeneous mix and a planetary inhabitant rather than an islander.  I am an idealist and live in hope realism seems so bleak  :)  

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10 hours ago, davidrj said:

As a 73 year old growing up in immediate post war Liverpool, with bomb sites, outdoor plumbing and rationing; I know my grandchildren will never really understand what makes me tick.

OMG - how old are you now??? :o :o :o

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10 hours ago, Peckris said:

OMG - how old are you now??? :o :o :o

at a guess

older.jpg

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Would gve keith richards a run for his money

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My wife is from rural Philippines and we have been married for about 22 years now so I have seen charities from both ends. I would suggest the biggest problem with western charities is their naivety, they think western not local. Three cases relating to the Philippines, water, in our local village the government sponsored the installation of a village water system. The problem was it didn't cover the whole village and didn't have enough pumping or storage capacity. Now this could have been for several reasons, not enough money, poor design or quite likely too much money syphoned from the project by local officials. The households that received the water then paid a monthly fixed sum plus and amount per litre. Because of the insufficient supply water was rotated by area,It was a bummer if your water was only on at 3am in the morning for a couple of hours, everyone filled buckets and drums when it was on. If they had just left in on it would all have sorted it,s selt out but for a lack of logical thinking. Anyway the pump needed maintenace but the money collected had been spent by the group of villagers charged with running the supply, so it all stopped and left to rot. We have a deep well and now supply about 40 house in our location. We charge but really only enough to pay the electricity for the pump plus a bit for maintence, we put up a 3000 litre water tower when visiting last March/April. Everyone is happy to get some water, it's not perfect but better than nothing. The problem is getting the monthly dues, it's about on average about £2 per month. There attitude is we have your water but why should we give you our money as you are a rich foriegner so you don't need it. It's the family running it not me but there is always the association.

Another example, the charity worldvison is very active in the Philippines, they collect funds which they buy school supplies and distribute to the poorer families. It is my belief that the local infrastructure is run by locals and each year the children where getting less and less, just a few pencils and a notepad. Apprently the locals on the ground were making loans to each other with the money rather than spending it on school supplies, only buying the minimum to look like they were forfilling their remit. Of course non of these loans are ever repaid.

Finally the super typhone that wrecked the city of Tacloban. Millions in aid went into the country, very little of it reached the island of Layte, a lot of the packaged western goods could be found in the markets of Manila and poor quality local goods forwarded. Local officials in Leyte were living high and profiteering was rife. So unless the charity can control the whole food chain from hand to mouth they will be taken for all they can give.

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54 minutes ago, Gary D said:

So unless the charity can control the whole food chain from hand to mouth they will be taken for all they can give.

That's the whole crux of the matter. It's such a shame that 'charitable aid' can't work the same way as emergency services that go out to help those boys in  the Thai cave, and other similar situations.

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39 minutes ago, Peckris said:

That's the whole crux of the matter. It's such a shame that 'charitable aid' can't work the same way as emergency services that go out to help those boys in  the Thai cave, and other similar situations.

In many ways I understand the terrible problems that faced by any charitable process.  Sadly  human nature is more often than not focused on "I want my slice of the pie", even if that means that someone elses family is trodden on along the line. The relatively less power you have  to be around the table eating the pie the more likely you are to be the one in greatest needs. , The seating arrangements at these these "tables within tables" pass along the line which means the most disenfranchised stand to lose all chances of even crumbs off the table.  . 

What then do we do about the problem? perhaps that is the key issue. Even if there is corruption ,should we always decide by default that we should do nothing?  making the individual get very little at all to suffer twice , once in the whatever the difficulty is and then secondly by our decision to withdraw support.  Humans when they act as a group tend to respond very differently to the way they act as individuals, sadly most people act to put self first and foremost no matter what the issues is or where the group is.  I have also seen it on both ends charity workers manipulate , such people are highly motivated divisive personalities and they develop their skills like parasites feeding off those who want to see those in need supported in some way.  The same with  the extraordinarily rich who want to have their own little stories to chat with their other very rich friends around their own dinner tables.  I have seen the very rich  charter personal jets to travel to the charities because it saved them the inconvenience of getting scheduled flights at inconvenient times of the day.  It is hard when you see both these types of behaviour , from rich to poor , officials at all levels and governments exploit some of the few good people and again it's important to remember those kids in those schools or disenfranchised from the table. 

To be honest I do not know how humans cope with the things they do to each other I am sure apes do the same as do other pack animals (but then humans do like to see themselves as better than animals ) .  I think what each person must do is to identify some project they can feel will guarantee their personal commitment. The only problem is that a large percentage would rather support a cat or a dog than another human so we rely on an elected oligarchy to take the decisions for us with international development as most of us do not have full appreciation of the facts, You will not be surprised to hear  I have very little faith in the ability of populations to make serious decisions outside the self interest of their own little tribes which would rarely take into account those from tribes less fortunate.  But of course we seem to like these popular powers to the people to make decisions when governments  and leaders are too weak to deal with  their own tribes internally .  I am not sure why I am defending this it just feels right to try even if I don't succeed.   

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Regardless of the recipient's nationality, ethnicity, gender, religion or race, the biggest stumbling block in International Aid is people.

Most of Western and Northern Europe citizens have little, or no, concept of the basic building blocks of society.

Family, Clan, Tribe.

At this level, nation state is a pure abstraction.

This level of priorities exists throughout much of Africa, Asia, and Latin America. 

It's how people exist in a society that still has echoes of the previous colonial masters who failed to to leave a legacy of commonly understood democracy.

It's also how Europeans behaved towards each other after Yugoslavia collapsed. Families that had been neighbours for generations suddenly became enemies or executioners because of the "otherness" of their former friends. Circumstances change alliances.

 

At various times in the 90s, I was involved in organising/leading voluntary aid convoys of British truckers to Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia. We actually lost less to Serb depredations, thanks to UN oversight, than we did in the Aid destinations. The biggest and most frightening problem was unloading.Either you were going to be ripped off by an official looking local Militia or a few hundred hungry and distressed people would swarm your truck like locusts. Once or twice it worked to plan and local autonomy ensured that aid went to where aid belonged.

Not getting robbed: Good

Not getting killed: A bonus.

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Vulture culture I suppose in many ways is driven by need , hunger, human nature is so difficult to understand.  In S Africa the ubuntu philosophy is supposed to act as a social concept that attempts to care for eachother, even here this usually gets manipulated into grab and snatch and the sharing is just for one's own family. Altruism versus the selfish gene ......I am sure I will never understand what makes humans act but I have to keep believing but I suppose deep down I know it is all unrealistic  ideology 

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