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DrLarry

OUCH! Holding this Trident is killing me.....

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Interesting....although my remark was totally tongue in cheek, Larry. Not meant to be taken literally. 

ETA - Although the bit about her liking slightly warmed up fillet streak, IS true B)

And I must apologise it has been so long since I've looked at the Gvi shillings for reason I had completely forgotten it is holding a sword and sceptre.... I've never seen lion or cheetah with one of those in it's paws.... 

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10 hours ago, Peckris said:

Here are two clear examples (sorry about the size, they're original scans):

1858 penny rev.jpg 1891 penny rev.jpg

With the pictorial evidence in front of us, can you explain what you're getting at please? (I will accept the earlier design is more 3D but that's because the copper series had enough thickness to accommodate a bolder design compared with the thinner bronze series).

the other important thing to note is that there is a significant difference in the Britannias on the copper coinage, each of which allows for a naturalistic pose that is in balance the Britannia of William IIII is Ornate trident ish and the hand is lower on the shaft, and the shaft reaches the lap in front of the pleated area, it is noteworthy that the arm is showing the weight of the trident with a slight bulge in the bicep in this position the hand is rendered in a realistic pose. Britannia is looking forward and up. The foot shows the toes as because the heel is in perspective angled slightly back from the saltire. whereas in the Britannia of G IIII the profile shows her looking a little down as in picture 3. The Victoria early 40's ornate pic 4 the hand is lowered, pic 5 is a 43 , The plain trident has the hand higher with the arm thinner the weight of the trident is less obvious in the bicep but then again the trident is plain and thinner so it would make sense for it to show lighter in the modelling of the arm. The hand in the later years in the ornate is lower but the balance by the thumb behind can be seen once again allowing the trident to be gripped naturally.  I am afraid I do not have a 60 copper to compare but by this time William Wyon was dead for some years but still out of respect the portrait is signed w.w for many of the later dates.   

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11 hours ago, DrLarry said:

 I bring up the posting because I wanted to see if the room feels there is an academic reasoning behind the problem that balances the artist the circumstances , the technical difficulties and the personal history of the family and the RM.  

There certainly seems scope to research (as you have done) the personal family background of the Wyons, and that would make for a fascinating study.

7 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

the other important thing to note is that there is a significant difference in the Britannias on the copper coinage, each of which allows for a naturalistic pose that is in balance the Britannia of William IIII is Ornate trident ish and the hand is lower on the shaft, and the shaft reaches the lap in front of the pleated area, it is noteworthy that the arm is showing the weight of the trident with a slight bulge in the bicep in this position the hand is rendered in a realistic pose. Britannia is looking forward and up. The foot shows the toes as because the heel is in perspective angled slightly back from the saltire. whereas in the Britannia of G IIII the profile shows her looking a little down as in picture 3. The Victoria early 40's ornate pic 4 the hand is lowered, pic 5 is a 43 , The plain trident has the hand higher with the arm thinner the weight of the trident is less obvious in the bicep but then again the trident is plain and thinner so it would make sense for it to show lighter in the modelling of the arm. The hand in the later years in the ornate is lower but the balance by the thumb behind can be seen once again allowing the trident to be gripped naturally.

We'll have to differ in opinion of how significant the differences are, though they are certainly there. And one thing I do agree on - the copper Britannia does look more natural than her bronze counterpart. I've always thought that was down to her being more 2D than the copper (necessarily) but it could be that tiny anatomical differences are registering subconsciously too.

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11 minutes ago, Peckris said:

There certainly seems scope to research (as you have done) the personal family background of the Wyons, and that would make for a fascinating study.

We'll have to differ in opinion of how significant the differences are, though they are certainly there. And one thing I do agree on - the copper Britannia does look more natural than her bronze counterpart. I've always thought that was down to her being more 2D than the copper (necessarily) but it could be that tiny anatomical differences are registering subconsciously too.

in that statement you sum up my whole position on it the eye is, somehow through constant awareness subconsciously of registering, when something just looks a tiny fraction "wrong".   In itself it is remarkable and I have only noticed myself in the past three years since starting all these "forensic" studies.  I will load up the pictures of the variation in the copper from 1825 to 59 which I think will help.  I have just got a little carried away imaging something else and so this debate has forced me to look very carefully at the copper series again so thank you everyone for enabling that.   

Edited by DrLarry
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I am aware that you think my observations to be somewhat annoying and trivial but I make them for no other reason than to investigate what I consider to be wonderful and beautiful things.  If they disclose hitherto unnoticed things I dont do it to upset anyone I do it because something confounds me , I see small blackened lines  which fit together to form patterns they are not (categorically) random and so I have a duty to investigate.  Bringing up the topic of Britannias arm is not to rubbish the design but to question the history surrounding the design itself and the artist.   

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2 hours ago, DrLarry said:

I am aware that you think my observations to be somewhat annoying and trivial...

If I thought they were annoying and trivial I wouldn’t read them. Sometimes I think you might be looking a bit too closely though. :D Keep posting - it’s all good.

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I'm sure I am but my eyesight is so bad microscopes allow me to enjoy the subject so I suppose it is a double edged sword. I will one day find the right method to show you some of the beautiful things I have found but it is so horrendously complicated I must find a way to show you all. 

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I admit that the reason why this trident thing is important because I believe based on the observations I have made that some of the working dies used for example to strike the 61 and 62 half pennies show evidence that the arm has been moved.  Now before you jump on me like a pack of wolves I have to say that I do not understand why there should be evidence in the coins, but this is the logical conclusion.  

The coins show often traces of a second trident to the left of the one we see now. Its ends sometimes are even higher than the inner circle.  Close to the extant hand to the left is a mound a slight rise in the topography of the coin almost looking like a "rusty patch" and in it I have found the fingers of the hand. This would fit the sitting Britannia much better as it draws the trident closer.  However I have another even more wild suggestion to make again based on observation.  Further to the left are almost always a series of scars invariably in the same place and with the exact positioning in order to interpret them as the helmet of the Britannia.  The position of the fingers in this "rusty mound" suggests an association with a standing britannia. The key to this is not only understanding the scars but also the topography of the coin.  It would require a 3D scan to verify if these rises in the coin fit a pattern which conforms to the explanation I have. 

Once again I know you think me bonkers but I have tried over and over to dismiss the evidence but the best fit I have for what there is in the coins themselves is the above explanation. Don't please ask me why we have no evidence and don't ask me why we have no patterns or written evidence to suggest that a standing Britannia was ever used before the 1902 florin.  Because I have not got a clue.  I am just applying empirical reasoning to observations.

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the trident is not in the same pattern as the extant one on the half penny its prongs are spaced so that the in form it more similar to the trident on the 1806/7 or the other SOHO coppers. The last prong of the trident on the right side finishes between the 1st and 2nd fork of the extant trident but above the top of the latter.

Edited by DrLarry

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