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zookeeperz

1873/2 Penny has it been recorded?

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Always the same old coins be nice to find 1 on an UNC. Has there been any recorded or know appearances of an 1873/2 Penny? 99.9 % sure this is one Much clearer through the loupe but pretty obvious . Have any been recorded or anyone got 1 hiding anywhere? I am sure somewhere in the back of my latent memory I am sure this has been discussed somewhere but I might be thinking of another coin?

1873.over2.jpg

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I've never heard of one, Richard. That one just looks a bit worn, which sometimes distorts true perception.

Cue someone to now say they are known :ph34r:

 

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30 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I've never heard of one, Richard. That one just looks a bit worn, which sometimes distorts true perception.

Cue someone to now say they are known :ph34r:

 

It is one I just wanted to know if anyone else had 1. through the loupe its clear but for some reason whatever spectrum the digiscope uses it is great for a small area at about 3 inches away but get any closer and you might as well look at a box of mud lol

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Why do you think it is 3 over 2 Richard? By comparison with my specimens, there seems to be a dent in the back of the upper half of the 3 giving the appearance of a detached spike , but the spike represents the back of the bulbous curve on an undamaged coin, which is why the upper curve of the 3 looks much narrower than normal on yours. Try superimposing the images if you can. This is a very worn, battered coin and I am truly surprised you can express a confidence of one in a thousand! (‘99.9% certain’).  

I’m dubious, sorry, as I would love to see clear-cut new varieties.

Jerry

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31 minutes ago, jelida said:

Why do you think it is 3 over 2 Richard? By comparison with my specimens, there seems to be a dent in the back of the upper half of the 3 giving the appearance of a detached spike , but the spike represents the back of the bulbous curve on an undamaged coin, which is why the upper curve of the 3 looks much narrower than normal on yours. Try superimposing the images if you can. This is a very worn, battered coin and I am truly surprised you can express a confidence of one in a thousand! (‘99.9% certain’).  

I’m dubious, sorry, as I would love to see clear-cut new varieties.

Jerry

I don't know if this makes it any clearer I have over layed the normal 3 on top

 

1873.over2.jpg

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Well, that clarifies my point about the upper half of the 3. I can see that a  ‘spike’ appears to rise from the almost worn away lower curve, but I suspect this is an artefact due to the surrounding dents and the angle looks wrong for a 2 diagonal anyway. I don’t think photos can clarify this on such a worn coin, if you remain adamant I can only suggest getting an ‘in the hand’ expert opinion.

Jerry

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I will look at mine tomorrow for you. Larry 

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9 hours ago, jelida said:

Well, that clarifies my point about the upper half of the 3. I can see that a  ‘spike’ appears to rise from the almost worn away lower curve, but I suspect this is an artefact due to the surrounding dents and the angle looks wrong for a 2 diagonal anyway. I don’t think photos can clarify this on such a worn coin, if you remain adamant I can only suggest getting an ‘in the hand’ expert opinion.

Jerry

Ignore the upward spike Jerry that is part of the coin surface caused by those indent either side . I was more interested in the base below the curve of the 3 and the far right edge of the top loop where there is another loop tracing it but goes inside the loop at a much steeper angle and not the same as the 3. I have the advantage of seeing it much clearer than the sad 5 mega-pixel image I could create and as you said the coin is in such a distressed condition unless you physically see it I wouldn't expect anything finite to be observed but all the input is on board. It's in the ever growing pile of TBD:lol:

 

Rich

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I have looked at four and cannot see much I will keep looking but my 73's are limited, so far I cannot see much...sorry  

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I'm not sure one can be definite about anything on very worn specimens like this. And, of course, if you can't actually photograph the evidence, in theory you can't actually record it.

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2 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'm not sure one can be definite about anything on very worn specimens like this. And, of course, if you can't actually photograph the evidence, in theory you can't actually record it.

I would not necessarily agree with the idea that something does not exist just because we cannot take a picture of it ,,,,and yes I know you are not saying that exactly true we cannot show it now.  I use a multitude of different photographic techniques I would urge you all to download a little app from Google play store called Cozy magnifier + .  in it there are a range of different imaging algorithms that render a coin in grayscale or negative reverse light.  With the latter I have been able to see even on screen images of coins a vast degree of detail that you cannot normally see.   The net result has been to find most of the less obvious varieties hidden under the "gunk" as a trade secret I will tell you that if you get the image on the screen at a good resolution and then use Cozy mag and image the coin in detail in the area you are looking you will find many more things.  Subtle changes in the light density which are difficult to see with the human eye can be caught digitally.  It took me a year or two playing with various methods to find this one.  

so give that a go and see if the information and this app work .....I realise now I have just destroyed my corner of this market ...but it does change the playing field and might allow you to record things previous difficult to record.  Good luck   Larry 

 

ps I do not have any connection to the app financially I just think it is the best I have found so far, but better on some phones than others 

Edited by DrLarry

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we do have to verify and be careful not to fall into the lalala land that some will go...no you zoo.  I mentioned to a seller from manchester that he had possibly a R over a B in an 1862 halfpenny and apparently he went back on the deal. Now every single coin he puts up for auction is some error or other that hell only knows where he gets some of the ideas from.  It's quite a distraction LOL ...still I have kinda given up buying from him as he always does cloaked auctions with his best mate or cousin at the same ISP who bids everything up for no reason ...other than greed.  There is so little integrity these days....said the old crone 

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I have had a good look and whilst I have no way of confirming anything yet I can say what I have seen. Of course you all know I'm the new nut job in the room... So take it with a pinch of salt. I can see on some a discolouration diagonally down from the central spike. This could of course be simply created by the comparative ware of initial lustre. The gunk that usually collects in the interior curve will I'm sure leave a line if cleared out later. 

However there repeatedly seems something strange below many of the lower ends of the 3. Again I have not looked to see if this is a depression or just discolouration. I tend to buy a load of them and shove them under the microscope. One or two for sale seem "interesting" and they are pretty cheap but of course then get what you pay for. 

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20 hours ago, DrLarry said:

we do have to verify and be careful not to fall into the lalala land that some will go...no you zoo.  I mentioned to a seller from manchester that he had possibly a R over a B in an 1862 halfpenny and apparently he went back on the deal. Now every single coin he puts up for auction is some error or other that hell only knows where he gets some of the ideas from.  It's quite a distraction LOL ...still I have kinda given up buying from him as he always does cloaked auctions with his best mate or cousin at the same ISP who bids everything up for no reason ...other than greed.  There is so little integrity these days....said the old crone 

Sounds like our good friend............If so surely your mistaken as everything he lists is correct and none of it shilled.

If it was him i think he probably struggled to understand you as his English is nearly as bad as mine :)

How do you mean he went back on the deal, if you bought it then told HIM what it was its hardly surprising.

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no I never said I bought it from him it sold and I asked him to look and it appears to have cropped up again now.  So it is also very possible that it was seen to be just a die run finding the weakest point between the two stems of the R.  I have a few now that do the same.  It is possible that the R has been punched several times I have one that arrived today R over R some part having been cut away leaving that pokey out bit at the top of the tail of the R on many examples.  The weakness is also perhaps the existence of the B over the R (removed) in the 62 

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52 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Sounds like our good friend............If so surely your mistaken as everything he lists is correct and none of it shilled.

If it was him i think he probably struggled to understand you as his English is nearly as bad as mine :)

How do you mean he went back on the deal, if you bought it then told HIM what it was its hardly surprising.

are you saying that if someone purchased  and on noting  something asked about prior to it being sent out you would think it quite acceptable behaviour to rescind the contract of sale?  

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No i never said that and obviously being new to the forum you are not aware of my views on dishonesty  .....I also made a point of using HIM in block capitals .

The person who bought it can ask and do what they want ,someone who didnt buy it or bid asking questions after it had sold i feel would not help the buyer.

Some sellers unfortunately are not truthfull or honest and better to just avoid.

it was quite hard typing as got a table cloth wrapped round me to see if the dapery on Britannia is correct ;)

All good fun.

Pete.

 

Edited by PWA 1967
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15 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

it was quite hard typing as got a table cloth wrapped round me to see if the drapery on Britannia is correct ;)

Well, is it then? :lol:

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Well with a table cloth,brush,wheel trim,flip flops and sat in the bath on a box ,looking in the mirror i think Mr Wyon did a good job :lol:

Edited by PWA 1967
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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

No i never said that and obviously being new to the forum you are not aware of my views on dishonesty  .....I also made a point of using HIM in block capitals .

The person who bought it can ask and do what they want ,someone who didnt buy it or bid asking questions after it had sold i feel would not help the buyer.

Some sellers unfortunately are not truthfull or honest and better to just avoid.

it was quite hard typing as got a table cloth wrapped round me to see if the dapery on Britannia is correct ;)

All good fun.

Pete.

 

"Correct" or otherwise  that really was not my point in the other post .  What I am trying to understand is the politics within the RM at this very important transition point. I am  simply seeing if there might be some mileage, or KM distance, in approaching it from the extant evidence we do have to see if there are any clues.  When you look for example at the parthenon frieze or the metopes it is possible to see the hand of individual artists, historical events and changes in style from early classic to later full classical style . By studying the anatomy and comparing with other works by the same artist I am trying to answer a riddle that I have never been able to fully understand which is why does LCW only ever sign the work for two years and never again?  is this a change in policy of the mint at this point? what if anything can it tell us about the relationships with its artists?    I simply act to try to understand things that make limited sense when compared to past and future attributions.  I think he is a wonderful artist and it intrigues me why such an iconic piece of art is denied his right.  Please tell me why there would be such a dramatic change in policy perhaps you have come across explanations I am eager to learn. 

Edited by DrLarry

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9 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Well with a table cloth,brush,wheel trim,flip flops and sat in the bath on a box ,looking in the mirror i think Mr Wyon did a good job :lol:

so did you manage to twist into the exact same position then?

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10 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Well with a table cloth,brush,wheel trim,flip flops and sat in the bath on a box ,looking in the mirror i think Mr Wyon did a good job :lol:

if he did such a good job why does he never put his name to it ever again ?

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The engraving of the dies he seems never really happy with himself , alterations and changes and numerous " in house changes"  led him to have to,almost,  to argue over the payment, which was questioned by officials, two trips to the sit for three days with the queen, an alternative upright britannia which appears to be in some ways a favoured choice by him because he wanted to do something "different" was then dismissed by the politicians who wanted to stick to the old model of the seated Britannia.  It made him sick and he himself remarks in his diary that he was essentially glad to be done with the whole affair.  So whilst collectors 180 years later may be happy with the "whole affair" I am not 100% convinced that he was.  I would draw your attention to the numerous medals which illustrate the Britannia and look at the lightness and delicacy of the form.  and the relationships with the other elements of the works. 

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Perhaps and seeing as those times you could be hung for just about anything that was against the monarchy the RM believed Mr LCW was making himself more important than what the coin was representing. He was hired to do a job and really only the Mint signature was needed on the coin. I am thinking they may have viewed it improper for him to have such a forefront profile and connection with the monarchy when he didn't other than to design what the coins were to look like. He was probably unauthorised to put his signature on the coins as in that era to mark the coins of the realm or deface them in any way was considered treason. Perhaps they hadn't realised firstly he had signed the coins. As his sig was only for 2 years perhaps in defiance he started to move his sig in a vain attempt to keep his name on the coins longer. As I cannot see why he would put them in 3 different places as human as we are we tend to be creatures of habit . I would of thought 1 signature in 1 place fits all. I also think he played cat and mouse with the RM as on some of the years both the reverse and obverse signatures were omitted only for them to reappear again. Ultimately was probably his parting gesture with the RM.  Has he ever appeared on any notes as a well known figure of history??

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no I dont think so apart from in the coins and medals world I doubt many would remember him or recall him.  Although he did design some very beautiful medals for a series of events as well as numerous coins for india and canada and Jersey , some of which like the newfoundland penny I think it is are beautiful.  I think many of his early works are versions of copies of his fathers work but he won a number of prizes when studying sculpture at the Royal academy for life drawing (importantly) and he was expected to spend several years at the school learning his trade whilst also second engraver to his father.  In the early 1850's after the death of his father the family were asked to vacate the house they had at the Royal Mint and they then moved out to the suburbs of London (Maida Vale) from that point on artisans had to provide many of the services that would have been once the role of workers within the mint and this led to a few disputes through the 1850's. 

Signatures are interesting and I have also looked around a lot for any evidence of the removal of signings the most obvious paces are in the region under the portrait and the in the exergue on the reverse.   if is intriguing in respect to both reverse and obverse that the sig is removed after year 2 but it was this that first got me interested in the penny in the first place.  ( just here to show that it is not always the same old thing that everyone else likes about collecting that make some of us start).  There are a series of repeated intriguing scars within the exergue on the left side of the reverse which occur over and over again it is always the same scars and takes two forms one just below where the rock is left of the shield and the other goes alongside the inner circle running down from where the sea cross the inner circle.  The second interest is the extension to the right side of the portrait I have alluded to before which would extend the portrait out to between the F D within this area something looks to have been removed close up to the inner circle and the same scar occurs between 1860 to 1863.  After which time I have not sought to plot it.  But even with a weight of evidence I have collected I am sure the "powers that be" would not allow for a debate. 

I do not know why or even if alterations would appear in any way or form because the idea of evidence of changes always get firmly squashed by the old guard I am not even sure if anyone has ever bothered to investigate.  What does exists then?  well there is persistent existence of "scaring" in a number of areas and definite marks which appear to suggest that there may have been numerous alterations of the master dies   perhaps (as a cost cutting exercise) by inexperienced artists who were the workmen at the mint and therefore cheap.  Not that any British government of course would cost cut and leave inexperienced staff doing the jobs of those who spent years training for their roles.....surely such a thing would NEVER !!! happen to GREAT Britain then or at any time.  

 

The artist was now a paid outsourced commodity once you have your artwork I am not sure if the artist had the protection of the Intellectual property right to insist or expect any changes or alterations to be their sole duty.  

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