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secret santa

Is the bottom falling out of the Penny market ?

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32 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

It's misleading Bob, misled both of us. When I first saw it on the dnw site, I genuinely thought it might be a new type, which is why I bought the up to date 2016 Freeman book, expecting to see it in there.

Somebody, somewhere, has deliberately made that up. 

What's the modern expression? - fake news :wacko:

 

I love it!...Fake News...we specialize in that here in the USA! :-)

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Specific coins have always been referenced to previous sales where there was a comprehensive collection even though it wasn't a documented reference volume. So crown for example have been referenced to the Lingford sale as the pre-eminent collection of that denomination, Similarly Nicholson halfpennies, Adams halfcrowns, Cooke farthings, Quartermaster/Bentley sovereigns, Norweb anythings etc. It isn't fake news, just another reference point.

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3 minutes ago, Rob said:

Specific coins have always been referenced to previous sales where there was a comprehensive collection even though it wasn't a documented reference volume. So crown for example have been referenced to the Lingford sale as the pre-eminent collection of that denomination, Similarly Nicholson halfpennies, Adams halfcrowns, Cooke farthings, Quartermaster/Bentley sovereigns, Norweb anythings etc. It isn't fake news, just another reference point.

The fake news reference was only meant to be tongue in cheek.

But the facts do show that there is no such Freeman type as the 10A. 

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https://bsjauctions.auctionmobility.com/lots/view/1-1XDHDU/united-kingdom

Seemed as good as anywhere to post although maybe a bit negative :D

These two F164a were sold at both the workman and crocker sales for a total of £1300.The low grade varieties like the F164a ,Gouby X and 1903 open are due mainly to the internet being found all the time , maybe when varieties are selling for good money others start looking who may not even want one.There are more now than people who want them ,so IMO can only go down unless they are VF or better................ they will be giving them away soon :D.

I was the underbidder otherwise they may of sold for £45 and although ones not bad , they are not worth anywhere near the money they were only a couple of years ago when i bought one for £250.

Pete.

Edited by PWA 1967

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7 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

These two F164a were sold at both the workman and crocker sales

Pete, I don't think that it's the Workman specimen; definitely the Crocker one but your point is well made. It appears to me that the collecting of pennies by Freeman (and Peck) variety is dying on its feet. My own collection will soon be worthless....................

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Yes your right Richard ,although it is like most of the others in a similar grade.I notice the St.James seller had bought a few from both workman / crocker sales including a 1909 Dot which sold in the previous auction a couple of months ago.The 1909 Dot being the same as the others mentioned unless VF or better........The last one i had i did give away to a forum member  :D

https://bsjauctions.auctionmobility.com/lots/view/1-1XDHE2/united-kingdom

Having a quick look he had bought both of them from the workman sale ,this is the one that sold yesterday.

Edited by PWA 1967

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I think its just swings a roundabouts , the country is in the shit at the moment, what with everything up in the air with Brexit .  Have faith it will probably bounce back  and with prices low its a good time to buy. :D

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21 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

I think its just swings a roundabouts , the country is in the shit at the moment, what with everything up in the air with Brexit .  Have faith it will probably bounce back  and with prices low its a good time to buy. :D

Cheered me up Terry :D

I will send you a mail when it does and you can help me sell them ,i might get a couple of £ each :D

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Pete, sorry I hadn't realised that there were 2 1909 dots in the Workman sale - the other one was sold by Baldwins on 20 March, lot 118 for £248.

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2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Pete, I don't think that it's the Workman specimen; definitely the Crocker one but your point is well made. It appears to me that the collecting of pennies by Freeman (and Peck) variety is dying on its feet. My own collection will soon be worthless....................

Although with that said the F169's still change hands regularly for 4 figure sums - check LCA, as would high grade oen 3's - and how many high grade 164A's are in existence? Being a tad pessimistic here I think

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27 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Pete, sorry I hadn't realised that there were 2 1909 dots in the Workman sale - the other one was sold by Baldwins on 20 March, lot 118 for £248.

Yes it was all part of the same collection Paul Hayward Edward V11 that was part 1 and the other one in part 2 yesterday  🙂

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20 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

https://bsjauctions.auctionmobility.com/lots/view/1-1XDHDU/united-kingdom

Seemed as good as anywhere to post although maybe a bit negative :D

These two F164a were sold at both the workman and crocker sales for a total of £1300.The low grade varieties like the F164a ,Gouby X and 1903 open are due mainly to the internet being found all the time , maybe when varieties are selling for good money others start looking who may not even want one.There are more now than people who want them ,so IMO can only go down unless they are VF or better................ they will be giving them away soon :D.

That's not good from a leading company like Baldwin's - they describe one as "fine" when it's really little better than Fair (if at all).

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Hmmm...this thread is a worry- I was toying this week with selling lots of stuff, including my pennies,

to fund a couple of daft projects/ideas.  maybe not the best time????

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8 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Hmmm...this thread is a worry- I was toying this week with selling lots of stuff, including my pennies,

to fund a couple of daft projects/ideas.  maybe not the best time????

https://bsjauctions.auctionmobility.com/lots/view/1-1XDHDY/united-kingdom

Its only SOME of the low grade varieties which have become a lot more common Blake 🙂

You only need to look at some such as these in high grade.

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22 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Pete, sorry I hadn't realised that there were 2 1909 dots in the Workman sale - the other one was sold by Baldwins on 20 March, lot 118 for £248.*

*And is now for sale again in the Baldwins Hong Kong auction on 25 June (lot 752) !

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13 minutes ago, secret santa said:

*And is now for sale again in the Baldwins Hong Kong auction on 25 June (lot 752) !

Indeed so, and yet again a previously non existent Freeman type has been invented to suit. There is no such thing as a F168A. In fact in the absence of the author's permission, which one presumes they've not got, I'd question the legality of ascribing the type to him.

Quote

752. Edward VII, bronze penny, 1909, dot after the N in ONE, bare head r., by de Saulles, rev. Britannia seated r., with trident and shield (S.3990; Freeman 168A), a rare variety, a coin from circulation, minor ‘digs’ on King’s face; certified and graded by NGC as Extremely Fine Damaged US$300-400 英國。1909年愛德華七世1便士銅幣。NGC Extremely fine Damaged. US$300-400

 

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57 minutes ago, secret santa said:

*And is now for sale again in the Baldwins Hong Kong auction on 25 June (lot 752) !

Yes i think it went unsold last time ,its the same collector / collection and just re-submitted ,i suppose its the benefit of splitting the auction into three parts.If one does not sell first time you can put it in again.

Edited by PWA 1967

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2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

https://bsjauctions.auctionmobility.com/lots/view/1-1XDHDY/united-kingdom

Its only SOME of the low grade varieties which have become a lot more common Blake 🙂

You only need to look at some such as these in high grade.

Yes Pete thanks for reminding me- same in everything- quality always holds up.

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59 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

There is no such thing as a F168A. In fact in the absence of the author's permission, which one presumes they've not got, I'd question the legality of ascribing the type to him.

Absolutely - it appears there's nothing to stop anyone inventing a new Freeman number for an unrecorded "variety" and pulling the wool over the eyes of unsuspecting collectors not fully au fait with the range.

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12 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Hmmm...this thread is a worry- I was toying this week with selling lots of stuff, including my pennies,

to fund a couple of daft projects/ideas.  maybe not the best time????

I wouldn't be put off too much, Blake. The point being made here is that coins like the Gouby X, 164A, and 1903 open 3, are scarce, but not rare. Hence they aren't going to command that much of a premium in low grade. That was pretty obvious anyway. 

Conversely, the F169, which is rare at all grades, and I understand >20 in existence, will always secure a high price. Obviously the price will vary somewhat, due to how strongly a given example is sought after on the day, but consider these hammer prices:-

Workman Nov 2010 - £1200 VG

LCA 3.3.13 - £1600 NF

LCA 1.9.13 - £1400 VG+

LCA 1.6.14 - £800 NF

LCA 7.6.15 - £820 VG

LCA 6.3.16 - £1700 VG

LCA 5.6.16 - £500 VG

LCA 3.6.18 - £1100 VG

Baldwin of St James 12.6.19 - £420 VG

 

 

 

 

Edited by 1949threepence
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19 hours ago, secret santa said:

the 1952 penny didn't sell at £80 grand...............................................

I thought you might have gone for that, Richard.

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I think its all the same as more turn up and all relative to how many collectors will pay for one.

A F169 was in LCA in Dec for £700.....It didnt sell but problem free ,this i do know as i bought it for less a couple of weeks after and now in a cgs slab.

One sold a couple of weeks ago in a job lot at DNW for £550 ,again i opened the bidding at £20 :D and then let others get involved as it wasnt worth anywhere near £550 to me

One sold on Tuesday in the Baldwin sale for £420.

Dealers are obviously selling coins all the time and by speaking to them you get a better feel for the market and prices 

Its all the same if more keep turning up ( which they will ) the price will come down or become stagnant if people ask to much

As far as the numbers there are definately more than 20 and its at this point IMO most collectors will of either bought one ,will look for one cheap on ebay etc or dont want one.

The biggest problem IMO is the lack of new collectors and this if it happens is what may bring the prices back up.

 

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10 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I thought you might have gone for that, Richard.

I dropped the possibility into conversation with my wife and her face left me in no doubt as to her view.........

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5 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I thought you might have gone for that, Richard.

I don't know if anyone else noticed but I think St James internet bidding site was playing up or being incorrectly used by the auctioneers: eg if the opening ask was 80K, bid button should have said 80K; instead it said 85K, the next up, and the 80K "ask" was described as "80K opening bid". The absence of any bid was then confirmed when the coin end up "passed". So it wasn't the opening bid, it was the opening ask.

No-one's going to bid 85K online when the coin is really available at 80K (but there was no button for that!)

I think this happened quiet a few times.

 

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