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Is the bottom falling out of the Penny market ?

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43 minutes ago, jelida said:

 

I haven't seen the updated Freeman book, but I gather that the 1860 N over sideways N (Z) is now referred to as a Freeman 10 A

Mike have you talked to Michael to get this new designation? Just wondering.

 

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7 hours ago, Paulus said:

I would have thought that might bring about an increase in nostalgia, not an increasing lack of it!

See this is what I think too - I think that interest in coins is probably declining in general (these days I think this sort of hobby is less common than it used to be and there are lots of other things to keep children entertained) but there are still people who get into it for whatever reason (have a family member that does it, inherit a collection, spot something interesting in change etc) and I don't think coin collecting will ever die out. New collectors will invariably spread to older coinage though - they might get bored of the modern stuff, finish their modern collection or be wealthy enough to want to chase down some of the older rarities.

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I don't think there is any danger of people stopping collecting, but there does need to be some means of transmitting the info about the coins that can't be collected from change. After all, you do need that catalyst to start in the first place. The biggest pressure counteracting taking up the hobby is the proliferation of digital entertainment, which wasn't available when 'traditional' (whatever that means) hobbies were more popular. I don't think collecting as an activity is less popular today, but the number of things to collect has expanded exponentially in today's throwaway society, giving less time available to any particular topic.

Detectorists find coins and might want to dig further (pardon the pun), but retail premises as a means of introduction are virtually non-existent. I personally started collecting both coins and stamps because my father did, as I suspect did a few others, but today that is a link which can be easily broken and only replaced with difficulty when instant gratification is the norm. Collections can't be sorted in a weekend. Exposure to the coins by whatever means is therefore paramount if people are to start collecting.

People read far less than they used to, so conveying the information has to be done in a more diverse manner. Visits to museums can clearly help. Television might have had its day given the number of channels and the alternatives to TV, but clearly archaeological programs can help. However, the transient nature of today's 'must do' activity should ensure that the most effective inspiration will come from family members and their immediate circle, because they have the most prolonged contact.

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9 hours ago, RLC35 said:

I haven't seen the updated Freeman book, but I gather that the 1860 N over sideways N (Z) is now referred to as a Freeman 10 A

Mike have you talked to Michael to get this new designation? Just wondering.

 

No Bob - dnw describe the variety as such for their upcoming auction. Thought maybe they knew something I didn't - link to item  

 

Main image

Click Image to Zoom

Lot Preview   (More Information)

To be Sold on: 19th & 20th September 2018

Estimate: £300 - £400

✔ SAVED IN YOUR CABINET!
BRITISH COINS, Victoria (1837-1901), Penny, 1860, dies Dd, toothed borders, lc wyon on truncation, lcw below shield, n over sideways n in one (Gouby JA; Bamford –; F 10A; BMC 1629; S 3954). Light scuff in reverse field, about extremely fine, some original colour, streaky on obverse, very rare £300-400
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5 hours ago, Mr T said:

See this is what I think too - I think that interest in coins is probably declining in general (these days I think this sort of hobby is less common than it used to be and there are lots of other things to keep children entertained) but there are still people who get into it for whatever reason (have a family member that does it, inherit a collection, spot something interesting in change etc) and I don't think coin collecting will ever die out. New collectors will invariably spread to older coinage though - they might get bored of the modern stuff, finish their modern collection or be wealthy enough to want to chase down some of the older rarities.

How strong is the hobby in Australia, out of interest?

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I didnt know were to post so here seemed as good a place as any.

In the DNW Hiram Brown there is a penny attributed as a proof F6A ,there is Know lot number but the last one in the preview.Obviously i can only look at the picture and dont buy proofs but is there anything that confirms it as just looks a normal one and seen better currency than that one ?

Any help would be appreciated as i have not got a clue.

Pete.

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=486&lot_id=1042

Edited by PWA 1967

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7 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

I didnt know were to post so here seemed as good a place as any.

In the DNW Hiram Brown there is a penny attributed as a proof F6A ,there is Know lot number but the last one in the preview.Obviously i can only look at the picture and dont buy proofs but is there anything that confirms it as just looks a normal one and seen better currency than that one ?

Any help would be appreciated as i have not got a clue.

Pete.

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=486&lot_id=1042

I agree with you Pete. I literally can't see anything to distinguish that coin from any equivalent currency strike. 

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The cataloguer will know a lot more than me Mike but i have a F6 in a PCGS slab MS65 that was less than £500 and from the picture wasnt sure if i was maybe missing something :)

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6 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

The cataloguer will know a lot more than me Mike but i have a F6 in a PCGS slab MS65 that was less than £500 and from the picture wasnt sure if i was maybe missing something :)

It even looks as though it follows the typical pattern of a circulation F6, with some of the reverse beads being knocked off. 

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Yes the one i have is IMO better to look at ,so wondered if there was another way to identify it  ... R19 :)

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48 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes the one i have is IMO better to look at ,so wondered if there was another way to identify it  ... R19 :)

Well here's the reverse of mine, Pete. Spot the difference (apart from slightly fewer knocked off beads in the same vicinity)

AF1QipOLUydderIyezZ8efwUwqAD88vwmyimuVMN  

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Genuine F5 proof from the same collection:-

Main image

Click Image to Zoom

Lot Preview   (More Information)

To be Sold on: 19th & 20th September 2018

Estimate: £600 - £800

BRITISH COINS, Victoria (1837-1901), Proof Penny, 1860, dies Ca, in bronzed-copper on a heavy flan, beaded border, thin inner rim, lc wyon on truncation, vertical eyeline, edge plain, 10.59g/12h (Gouby CB; Bamford 169; F 5 [dies 1+A]; BMC 1622; Norweb 1732). Some obverse carbon spots, otherwise extremely fine, very rare £600-800

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Yes Mike i looked at the others and would not question that one.I suppose it all goes back to if your spending a few quid you need to view them to be sure.

From the picture i would not bid on the F6a ,however maybe it is :)

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you guys spend a lot of money aye !!:)

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4 hours ago, Rob said:

I personally started collecting both coins and stamps because my father did, as I suspect did a few others, but today that is a link which can be easily broken and only replaced with difficulty when instant gratification is the norm.

I started because I saw a 1672 farthing for 6d in a antiques/curios shop window, and thought it would be cool to have something that old, and dated. I was 15 at the time.

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5 hours ago, Rob said:

I don't think there is any danger of people stopping collecting, but there does need to be some means of transmitting the info about the coins that can't be collected from change. After all, you do need that catalyst to start in the first place.

I don't remember what got me started on older coins but having them at the start of every catalogue I've ever bought probably helped.

3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

How strong is the hobby in Australia, out of interest?

Still strong I'd say - there are still a few societies, regular shows and a local magazine, and of course the Royal Australian Mint is churning out more collector coins than ever. As annoying as the plethora of coloured $2 coins is, it probably helps spark an interest in the man on the street.

There is a dedicated subforum on Coin Community too which used to be quite busy (a lot of traffic moved to the hidden sections of https://www.australian-coins.net/ around 2012 - it has been a bit quiet of late but I think it's harder to sustain continuous conversation about 108 years of Australian coinage (not including the gold) compared to many hundreds of years of British coinage).

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You can't argue with that. Both British and German coins offer huge scope for discussion. So too do French issues, ancients etc. The key is clearly diversity of design, which is helped immensely by hammered issues which are intrinsically different dies every time. 

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1 hour ago, DrLarry said:

you guys spend a lot of money aye !!:)

If it's worth buying, Larry, it's worth spending. 

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58 minutes ago, Peckris said:

I st

6 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

If it's worth buying, Larry, it's worth spending. 

yes true and likes you it brings pleasure to me too  

 

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I knew penny as a school girl, my mum used to char for her parents, I prefered her elder sister.

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9 hours ago, Rob said:

You can't argue with that. Both British and German coins offer huge scope for discussion. So too do French issues, ancients etc. The key is clearly diversity of design, which is helped immensely by hammered issues which are intrinsically different dies every time. 

Agreed - while there are a lot of Australian decimal varieties to discuss, most collectors I think aren't that interested: predecimal varieties tend to get more coverage, but the last new Australian predecimal variety was discovered in 2003 and I don't think any more will be coming out of the wood-work at this point (meanwhile Victorian bronze seems to have an apparently endless supply of varieties that even 150+ years later keep trickling out).

I'm not fully across the the various changes to decimal British coins but I assume the changes haven't caused anywhere near the same level of interest as the switch to decimal currency in 1970? I wonder if New Zealand's coin shrinking in 2006 had a big impact on the hobby.

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By analogy, does anyone under 50 collect stamps any more? 

People nowadays communicate by phone, email or social media, rather than by mail.

 

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There are many different things to consider here and there is just no simple answer...

-Auction participation... The right collectors need to participate if auction results are going to be used as a market indicator

-Demographics... Varieties are not common knowledge to common collectors. Further, there are fewer younger people that seem to connect with history, art and design and how that is memorialized on coinage. This is unfortunate.

-Availability... How often do certain rarities appear on the market and think how condition plays a role in determining the hammer price.

I suspect the overall copper market is okay but certain rare varieties will fluctuate given demand. 

 

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'Varieties are not common knowledge to common collectors. Further, there are fewer younger people that seem to connect with history, art and design and how that is memorialized on coinage. This is unfortunate.'

This seems to be endemic and not only among the younger members of society. Last week we went to the inter-counties quiz at Crewe, and we were the only team to answer a question concerning the identity of a monarch sandwiched between two other. For a group of people that must refer to Spink/Coin Yearbook or whatever on a reasonably regular basis, that is a fairly damning indictment the attention many people pay to detail. If they struggle to identify the monarch, then a variety has no chance

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