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On 7/27/2018 at 9:07 PM, 1949threepence said:

It's your call what you do with it, if anything. Just as it is your choice whatever else you choose to post on the topic. Unless you can present some credible evidence to support your assertions, my interest in the topic is now at an end. It was you who started the thread, Larry, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that your ideas will be cross examined and questioned. Better that, I'd imagine, than it being completely ignored. It's not my forum by the way, it's a common resource for the good of all of us.     

I have a probing, analytical mind and when a question is posed, I like to get to the bottom of it - as far as is possible at any rate. On this occasions I felt it was a good way forward to ask the RM for their view, or possible historical record, which I did in a wholly objective and unbiased way. 

Anyway, for better or worse we now know what their view of the matter is.

 

 

On 7/27/2018 at 9:07 PM, 1949threepence said:

 

 

 

 

I also have a probing mind one which when confronted with something that has intriguing qualities of  "non-randomness"  feels it is sensible to investigate something empirically. The same happens here when someone posts something I go to my own collection and look through to see if there is anything I can do to share or exchange information as one would expect from a forum .  

I think the freedom of information request would have been better coming from a position of having been better acquainted with features I have mentioned in this thread.  I don't think at anytime I have mentioned the phrase "watermark" in any way other than in parenthesis, to use it metaphorically and as PWA illustrates I am sure they found it an amusing afternoons twittering.   I personally collect perhaps for different reasons to you , I don't know or assume to know what those reasons might be, it is the prerogative of any collector to find their own purpose and direction.  Investigating this phenomena is my personal interest and of course I shall continue until I think there is evidence (empirical) that constitutes a reason to dismiss the findings.  The pattern remains thus far a constant and the interpretation is ongoing and a working hypothesis. 

As you say you have a "probing analytical mind" so I am sure questions outside of the norm can be answered rapidly by going straight to the root of the issue and you have done this in your way and satisfied your curiosity.  

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HI Jerry, a somewhat delayed response to my initial query when I saw this discussed on a different topic.  Being completely honest I cannot see the images, but that means diddly squat.  I guess a few comments / observations on what I've read so far.  Apologies, I know so little about the topics you'll have to excuse my ignorance if these are blindingly stupid questions or don't even make sense

a) Did we have (do we) the technology to imprint images into pre formed metal discs?

b) If this really is something that we have been doing, presumably you wouldn't find this in other countries' coinage? Have you reviewed other coins? If other countries did this then you may expect other national images - France, the cock; Australia - kangaroo? If you did find images in other coins, then perhaps it's another tick down the line of metallurgy with hot metal cooling / the physics of pressing a coin / pareidolia

 

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1 hour ago, richtips86 said:

b) If this really is something that we have been doing, presumably you wouldn't find this in other countries' coinage? Have you reviewed other coins? If other countries did this then you may expect other national images - France, the cock; Australia - kangaroo? If you did find images in other coins, then perhaps it's another tick down the line of metallurgy with hot metal cooling / the physics of pressing a coin / pareidolia

Don't confuse France with Trump Tower :lol:

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1 hour ago, richtips86 said:

HI Jerry, a somewhat delayed response to my initial query when I saw this discussed on a different topic.  Being completely honest I cannot see the images, but that means diddly squat.  I guess a few comments / observations on what I've read so far.  Apologies, I know so little about the topics you'll have to excuse my ignorance if these are blindingly stupid questions or don't even make sense

a) Did we have (do we) the technology to imprint images into pre formed metal discs?

b) If this really is something that we have been doing, presumably you wouldn't find this in other countries' coinage? Have you reviewed other coins? If other countries did this then you may expect other national images - France, the cock; Australia - kangaroo? If you did find images in other coins, then perhaps it's another tick down the line of metallurgy with hot metal cooling / the physics of pressing a coin / pareidolia

 

It’s actually Larry who can see these images in the marks on a coin, not me. I remain dubious in the extreme, both in the (unrecorded) technology necessary and from my viewpoint total lack of evidence that can be interpreted by others in the way Larry interprets it. Larry however has extreme conviction in his theory and I remain interested in where it eventually leads him. 

Jerry

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21 hours ago, jelida said:

It’s actually Larry who can see these images in the marks on a coin, not me. I remain dubious in the extreme, both in the (unrecorded) technology necessary and from my viewpoint total lack of evidence that can be interpreted by others in the way Larry interprets it. Larry however has extreme conviction in his theory and I remain interested in where it eventually leads him. 

Jerry

Woops, you're right.  The effect of a good "Tally-Ho".

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15 hours ago, richtips86 said:

Woops, you're right.  The effect of a good "Tally-Ho".

What has to be remembered is that this pattern started to form in my mind under a specific set of circumstances.  I was , at this time , using coins as a vehicle to get my braIN WORKING  again in a post chemotherapy haze.  My brain had become dysfunctional and was no doubt very fluid.  At this time over a period of two years or so I had very little interaction with other people.  In the process of using the coins under the microscope it may well be that the normal process of pareidolia were replacing this pattern which I was constructing over and over again with the "normal" pattern which would be facial recognition. I re-enforced this by drawing the images and making interpretations which may have again made the pattern stronger "in my mind".  So it is possible that it has established a neurological pattern in the part of the brain involved in facial recognition and hence I see it quite clearly even without the microscope now and the pattern complexity derived from my previous ability to recognise patterns as part of my work.  It may well be that my brain has now been re-wired, this I would accept is a distinct possibility.

I have no desire to be controversial I simply set out to describe a phenomena I was recording every day.  If this is the case and I accept that it may be the explanation then my mind has created an extremely bizarre association or sets of association and I haven't a clue from where it gathered this information as I have no affiliation with this devices themes.  In doing what it does I have created a three dimensional projection which has rotational symmetry and a complex interweave.  In seeking the simplest answer , that the pattern exists in the coins as I was taught to do as a scientist I relied on collecting date empirically trying to make sense of anomalies in the designs on coins as I have mentioned in other postings, (Britannias Hand and the lost design elements; understanding flaws in the bronze series)  all of which seemed to indicate two possibilities "in my mind" either alterations to the dies or a repeat pattern which is the topic of this thread.

It may well be that I have a neurological disorder now brought on by looking too hard and trying to make sense if this is the case then it is in itself interesting only to me.  What it has given me however is an innate ability to spontaneously create patterns in nature and use this in art and if nothing else it has turned me into a computer that translates pattern into form for which I suppose I should be eternally grateful.  

 

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On 7/31/2018 at 8:49 PM, richtips86 said:

HI Jerry, a somewhat delayed response to my initial query when I saw this discussed on a different topic.  Being completely honest I cannot see the images, but that means diddly squat.  I guess a few comments / observations on what I've read so far.  Apologies, I know so little about the topics you'll have to excuse my ignorance if these are blindingly stupid questions or don't even make sense

a) Did we have (do we) the technology to imprint images into pre formed metal discs?

b) If this really is something that we have been doing, presumably you wouldn't find this in other countries' coinage? Have you reviewed other coins? If other countries did this then you may expect other national images - France, the cock; Australia - kangaroo? If you did find images in other coins, then perhaps it's another tick down the line of metallurgy with hot metal cooling / the physics of pressing a coin / pareidolia

 

If this was to happen the technology would be pretty simple and would only require one additional intervention at the minting house.  Inking a blank planchet (as you would if you were acid etching) the thickness of which would predict the level to which the pattern would be etched or lines incised (with no inked protection).  I think if I am not mistaken there are a number of chemical baths used in the coining process from very early times in order to rid the coin of oils or residues or to make the coin presentable for die pressing and distribution.  The aesthetic and the practical aspects dealt with by chemical washing and cleaning.  

We also have to remember if these patterns do exist in coins that many nations have their coins minted by the Royal Mint or other mint houses (SOHO, HEATON given license (contracted by state ) and so if this technology was used then it might exist in overseas coins.  In terms of uptake of the system as a security device by subsequent overseas state run mints the device may well have been a shared one.  It's purpose if "IT" exists is not to seek an answer to currency counterfeiting in one nation but a adoption by as many as possible which would allow coinage to be exchanged.  Really I have come up with some fanciful notions of a shared process and only when this ceases to be a commodity shared (coins) and replaced by more sophisticated notes and security in those is much easier does it remain for its other purposes (if there are any)!  

The images or themes of the device are not specific to the UK in the most simple format I (in my mind) I have seen it is the juxtaposition of a sequence of Lion heads to lambs heads (and their bodies) and this as an allegorical purpose.  I suppose (in my head) I saw the "coin" as a an almost sacred contract one of value and exchange as a state level with the holder of the coin.  The use of the theme (I saw) as something more than the practical purpose of a coin and saw the coin on a more esoteric level.  By imposing this theme on the coin (as I saw it) a statement of Kingship, power, control, was harmonised by the use of the lamb theme representing the weakest, the sacrificial, the one that needs caring and nurturing and ence I saw this empathic relationship of Lion to Lamb as a representation of the relationship of state (economic and governed)  monarch (king or queen) to the people (lambs) in whom this coin was to be entrusted.  I had conceived of an idea that would also imbue a coin with a higher purpose and carrying with it these values, reinforcing also a christian iconography embedded into its very fabric. 

As bizarre as this whole neurological pattern was, I tried to reconcile it with an "essential" aspect of a coin which is as a vehicle for propaganda and to reinforce the religion of the state and the power of the leaders or state to be in control of ,the one fundamental aspect of each nations prosperity ....TRADE.  When I first looked at the very earliest coins from Lydia I saw the main feature of a Lion and and a sacrificial animal (ram or calf) and made a connection (which is likely very wrong) but on turning these coins over I saw (in my mind) the "hammer " marks not merely as an abstract punch but with design and that design seem to follow the device I had "imagined".  I then traced the use of the image of the coin through history and desired to see a continual flow of state and contract (through coin) with the holder (those who would be the sacrificed,   share in the states wealth) .  I began to collect coins of all ages and types and tried to search for a repeat pattern (not initially hidden within the fabric of a coin) but subtle disguising of the Lion and Lamb themes and hence I came up with the idea of transmogrification (making the image of a king into a subconsciously held image, innate to man in his/her psyche, of the Lion as the all powerful, one to be feared and predator) and when I looked at coins across the ages I kept on seeing the Lion within each one and the Lamb (hidden as part of the design).

It was an intriguing and strange story that gave coins a "value" almost a "sacred" with an  enhanced purpose.  When I saw it even on modern coins I believed it to be true and still continuing.  It is astonishing to me that I can find on almost all the coins I have studied these forms of Lion and Lamb, (scary as well) and whilst it annoyed me at the very same time it was wholly fascinating.  What I wanted to see was a coin as something wholly more valuable than just its face value.  And so this way of thinking was in some way a long and remarkable story a strange "secret" ( if you like )transferred across time by the money makers driven by empires in an almost constant flow. 

In one last leap of madness when I saw the changes in coinage form post crusade times, I saw this as a renaissance  of this secret and control of heraldic emblems by the 13thC college of arms, and the establishment of the goldsmiths guilds and the trial of the Pyx I tried to connect all these elements. I tried to reconcile it with new knowledge brought back from arab mathematicians along with classical works of Euclid, Pythagoras contributing to a kick start of early european re-birth thinking as it is very unlikely that without the muslim/christian conflicts  old texts previously lost would never had reached us. The way the pattern worked seem to show tessellation and geometry combined.   It was a somewhat silly and fairy tale approach to global history, trade, economics, state controls, and later on kingship and christian iconography.  Ridiculous of course but it all made perfect sense to me (in my post chemo haze mind) Oh the power of the mind when it is right or when it goes wrong. I was searching for something that illustrated that there was something in common in this fractured world and this was my convoluted construction so whilst the world seemed wholly ready to divide I was seeking a story that keeps us human rather than one nation one religion, one group in confrontation with another.  The lion Lamb idea was one of beautiful empathic simplicity and so perhaps I need to write all this up for the purpose of just recording the strange effect that a simple hobby can have on a mind in a time when it fears division. Yes I know I am MAD!

 

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Did you invoke me, @DrLarry?  Some talk of "madness"?

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But at the end of the day it has taken me on a journey and in it's own silly way I saw elements of the design of coins as part of a journey too. In so doing I crossed history and time looked and bought coins and books I would have never dreamed I would own ad taking hundreds of thousands of images which I think now are so beautiful in context to this strange story that I will soon begin to paint them.  When I look into them I see something very comforting and I see something very beautiful so perhaps others will see that too.  We all go mad in our own unique way this is likely to be my life's work now I will start at the beginning and end up with this ugly modern stuff.  LOL

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6 minutes ago, Madness said:

Did you invoke me, @DrLarry?  Some talk of "madness"?

no the genie can get back in the bottle.  I invoke myself LOL

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2 hours ago, DrLarry said:

But at the end of the day it has taken me on a journey and in it's own silly way I saw elements of the design of coins as part of a journey too. In so doing I crossed history and time looked and bought coins and books I would have never dreamed I would own ad taking hundreds of thousands of images which I think now are so beautiful in context to this strange story that I will soon begin to paint them.  When I look into them I see something very comforting and I see something very beautiful so perhaps others will see that too.  We all go mad in our own unique way this is likely to be my life's work now I will start at the beginning and end up with this ugly modern stuff.  LOL

I did see one of your lion heads very clearly - however I also accept that it was 99% likely to just be a coincidence of pattern that caused the face recognition part of the brain to kick in.

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True I just wish they wouldn't have eyes and tongues LOL

CM180802-142056031 (243x400).jpg

CM180802-125512005 (243x400).jpg

CM180802-132515013 (400x388).jpg

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1575393695_CM180801-131607015(297x400).jpg.1792bbbf8e766ea522faaf7fb30939c7.jpg233915820_CM180801-134224018(271x400).jpg.958933976852c40be54d789f3b960097.jpg312502705_CM180802-132424012(360x400).jpg.f80dc5c8c2ae0c3f8161bfcfc3cae8a3.jpg

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1161739201_CM180802-132002011(321x400).jpg.ebce52f7414086a9dab3306fb3b3d1a6.jpg

CM180802-131015007 (348x400).jpg

Edited by DrLarry

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When I started it was the extand design that kept giving me the pattern sequence, it was only really a desire to understand why so many things all over the place seemed to have eyes ...I suppose eyes are at least common to humans and animals so I dint completely drift off into the land of OZ.

When I saw a similar pattern in the new coded windows of the new £1 coin showing the same scatter of a pattern broken by a sequence of "slats" which merge into a form I thought I had it

.81112088_CM180730-231429074(243x400).jpg.fd39ae38abf4ce01dee1b5e5fef744b3.jpg1878280697_CM180730-231021072(243x400).jpg.033bf685d50b6b7254799196b8fc02f7.jpg

 

the patterns seemed the same to me whether looking at the extant design as in this 1831 penny 

1995311712_CM180730-195719012(243x400).jpg.d3be6300baf1bea100340a97b3b8169a.jpg1982698187_CM180730-195752013(313x400).jpg.f9e80f953aa4d4a717fa4ca1f2767092.jpg

 

Or when I looked at the sweet little Vigo sixpence 

1007314870_CM180731-131045018(243x400).jpg.c4a76a4fec192a47a637e4781e88493a.jpg

 

it seemed all a matter of just angling the camera in the right direction using negative light and the form would come through ....I proposed the blank planchet idea simply because if the whole of the coin face were etched when the die struck the coin the design elements of my pattern would flow around and over the design elements and hence when something similar in the "extant design" picked out the form then the image would be re enforced .  It made obvious sense that if you viewed a series of broken pattern at such an angle to allow the "fragments" to merge (the etched design) they were easily observable.  Only rarely did a form like the lion Peckris saw and the obvious one in the Vigo sixpence

 

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Every morning when I wake up and gaze at the ceiling, there is a fluffy little bird with its beak open singing its little heart out. It's actually just an accidental pattern in the dried Artex, but having seen it once I can not 'unsee' it.

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9 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Every morning when I wake up and gaze at the ceiling, there is a fluffy little bird with its beak open singing its little heart out. It's actually just an accidental pattern in the dried Artex, but having seen it once I can not 'unsee' it.

yes indeed and I am sure you have pointed it out to your significant other I hope it sings a good song .....perhaps a wren ...careful you dont start seeing wrens on coins !!!

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yes although I have to admit even for me I found this vigo sixpence quite convincing

2142221909_CM180802-172559012(243x400).jpg.da0d046e745952673a9054fdda722b48.jpg 1144997899_CM180802-171616006(243x400).jpg.a1d0c70e5f2326762351fc53be7c5267.jpg1117043797_CM180802-172225011(243x400).jpg.a1f61c0ed2a6ac2a6ab2361baeed3ca6.jpg92937480_CM180802-172757014(243x400).jpg.02c991341472d1e9e986f5cd0cd46142.jpg761342879_CM180802-173226016(243x400).jpg.9e5a00b3ab7b9b92fcd46959fbbd091a.jpg with each angle showing a different sequence 

Edited by DrLarry

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Point taken regarding British mints producing coinage for others. So have you tried looking at coins from non-uk mint nations? 

Especially in your sketch, I’m seeing more of a shaggy dog and one of the coins I get a dragon!

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6 minutes ago, richtips86 said:

Point taken regarding British mints producing coinage for others. So have you tried looking at coins from non-uk mint nations? 

Especially in your sketch, I’m seeing more of a shaggy dog and one of the coins I get a dragon!

The geometry is similar in many of the forms if you use triangle tessellation a lions head can very easily become a dragon, or stag I'm not sure if I have an image 

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19 hours ago, richtips86 said:

Point taken regarding British mints producing coinage for others. So have you tried looking at coins from non-uk mint nations? 

Especially in your sketch, I’m seeing more of a shaggy dog and one of the coins I get a dragon!

Without investing a lot I have it in some overseas coinage but I try not to look too much ...but then I am as nutty as a fruit loaf ...with nuts !!!

I had this theory that seemed to make sense at the time that a lot of this was mixed up with the rise of the heraldic orders during the 11th to 13th C culminating in colleges of arms.  I tried to make sense of many of the forms by seeing the emblems as abstract forms of the sequences I was finding. so for example the lion is obvious, but the lion with the tongue seemed always to be associated with a negative space that resembled another creature "a lamb" ....Part of the way I saw or see things uses the unremarkable spaces in between i.e negative space.  If you look t these spaces (a skill that would be common for an engraver who had reverse perception in design) then they do appear to be much more significant.  The issue was that if you only look at the obvious design space i.e the lion that is all you ever see.  When I looked at emblems like the Fleur de lys I began to see subtle variation in the design same with subtle variations in lambs each of which when viewed from an alternative perspective could quite easily become something very different ...usually some modification on the lion lamb sequences.

I just see a different world one in which I seem to be alone, but this is often the case with any type of neurological issue I suppose (no offence intended).  What I was seeking was an order in the apparent chaos and by assigning these complex patterns a place in historical context and within the secrets of the guilds I gave them a sense of reality (in my mind)....it will be an interesting book on brain function if nothing else! of course the moment you see eyes the brain can compute all the things around it to suddenly make sense of the world 

Edited by DrLarry

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I would think as a young friend told me last week that if true it would all be rather niche....this way the "madness" viewing the world so differently at least has a broader spectrum of interest...even I find it more interesting but at the same time when one has the ability to observe ones "other world" and see it with such clarity I am sure the real test of sanity will be how I deal with...at the moment is is a little strange.  But I also find the intriguing way I see coins to suddenly to have so much more beauty and are less mundane to me and as I have said in this troubling world of division the lion and lambs are quite comforting  

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OK these are the lines that Madness noted on the image of the shilling he has on his training to grade thread.  

CM180805-171126002.thumb.jpg.3cbd431a1f236a684b9c05dea0fcf16e.jpg460886540_CM180805-184055001(304x500).jpg.6392347617e67242cad32ac72bb55998.jpg

The thing that is so remarkable is the simple mathematical relationship I have in the next set taken the angle steeper so you can see what happens when the lines merge fully.  It is always the same a set of parallel dark and light bands which b=cut across the coins face and when viewed from the side edge the sequences occur again and again ...I know it may be my brain ut how can this be. They are always clearest when you get this grid section of the pattern. You have to imagine a design drawn on a flat circle, then split into a series of arcs and domed up into a spherical projection.  If I could just get you to understand that the sequences follow the same pattern of light and dark merges to form a joined line...each patch merges and in one "vertical sequence there can be as many as 50 combinations ... 

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1487062139_CM180805-185021008(304x500).jpg.b8f5efb501b392031819d9d4bf852171.jpg2020219684_CM180805-184551005(312x500).jpg.3475f842a79b9d65ecf23b5fc16ee4d7.jpg 

the only way I can get close to showing you this is to use the photo exposure to pick up areas of the same density of shade .  this allows the upright seated lion to be also seen in context to the smaller "lamb" units which come out of the image towards us and are therefore foreshortened. I think some of the numerous problems involved in seeing this relate to my ability to recognise the sequences so whilst at one tome the sequence can show the seated lions stacked one head on the other in the next section I will show you another constant the "lion carrying the lamb in its mouth" 

Edited by DrLarry

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CM180805-185051009.thumb.jpg.7145499b8efdaa32db20e4568da08403.jpgIn seeing this one your mind has to be able to seek out assemblages of the same the tone, usually the tonal "discontinuities" are created which help in being able to show the points where the Lamb and the Lion merge.  They rely on artistic ambiguity as I have mentioned in the past.  So that at any one time there can be a "sharing" of the anatomical elements.  As I have said to you structurally this makes it look like Guernica by Picasso when viewed at different angles elements are shared.  In art this is something that has been used by artists for centuries to trick the eye.  In the same way that you look at those magic eye pictures you must relax your eye to look through the image not at it.  In that way the "ghosts" of the heads actually form a £D effect.  This is I think just a phenomenon associated with diffraction and the metaphor of the diffraction grid is quite a good one as light is scattered and bent around the diffraction grating in the same way.  These images employ some rather sophisticated visual trick relying on optical properties ...but the image is akin to what you would see if you viewed it through through optical calcite or a glass with faceted faces. 

 

I am not going to give up on you...or me 

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