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I realise I have broken a cardinal rule..namely to involve and include, a forum must be a place of gathering information.  So I will start again, after a nice week touring the Galloway coast and the lakes painting I return with renewed vigour to my favourite topic.  But rather than ask you to see as I see after 3 years I will try gather your opinions and ask that you do just one thing:  to look with great care before you respond.  

In 2015 I noticed the faces of "an animal" or two "behind" the surface design on coins.  I pursued a line of investigation which has allowed me, after a great deal of work, to see clearly for myself what these patterns are. THey are complex and I would like to ask those of you with time and inclination to help understand rather than just see if these patterns exist and if so what is the purpose and most importantly how could they have been "imposed" on coins since at least the late 17thC and likely earlier.  I initially saw it in Bronze pennies but they are the tip of the iceberg. 

I have a number of avenues ..theories but I need keen observers to add to and develop ideas.  I am searching for a team of amature researchers.  I have no desire other than to make sense of the medium "coin face" and better understanding   of the coins we all love.  My tools are simple a microscope, my collection, and a fine sable brush.  Although I do have many years experience with pattern recognition I do not think this is a prerequisite for discovery.  

At the heart of this idea is the very essence of a coin which is wrapped up in the idea of the "state" its economy and religion and key to it is the sacred relationship between the monarch and christianity. I should be clear that I am in no way religious but I do not deny the importance of the relationship KING:STATE:GOD and have to go where the answers may lay rather than ignoring I must acknowledge this triad.  Transmogrification is I think key to this idea: a design that if viewed in a particular way can be a number of different forms, in the case of coins the monarchs head as an example of head of state, primary servant of God in the state, protector and carer yet must show humility to succeed. 

Could anyone who has an interest in mystery; solving puzzles; love of coins; history;  metallurgy; alchemy (chemistry); design and art please get involved.  I am more than happy to accept that if we do not solve this in a year I will deem myself totally mad and stop looking after which apart from a book about my descent into madness  you will hear nothing more from me on the subject.  However if we solve this riddle (as I see it!) we may uncover a beautiful aspect of coining design and history that just might make it a bit more interesting for new collectors. I am not Dan Brown, there is no Da Vinci code but he may play a part, who knows. I do not have the answers but we might be able to get them together.

Many thanks Larry 

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Well I don't believe in coincidence so that would make us both mad as march hares. I have seen things on coins for as long as I can remember but never enough detail to be able to put a name to it which always led me to the must be multiple die clash theory or subtle double or even triple strikes at rotated positions which can appear to the eye to be something completely different. The worse thing from my point is the closer you get to the coin the less you see of the distortion . I have seen a recurring pattern on pennies for some years and to be honest it kind of freaks me out as I am not looking for anything it just appears and with the same design. I have a theory as to what they might be but it's just a theory to try and make sense why it keeps happening. I saw on a penny one day intricate lines and curves like mesh netting and small squares and looped lines and realised these were sail masts with crows nests and the lines were the ropes , even the bows of the boats became visible. We don't have this on regular coinage so I left it sitting for years and just put it down me seeing some parodie  effect. Then I bought a few canadian and australian books and some on trade tokens. Now this totally blew me away as what I thought was ships could well be that. Trade tokens at the time carried a whole host of imagery on them covering a multitude of industries. Now bearing in mind these were produce in all metals and was a direct result of there being a shortage of coinage. So what happened when the shortage was over what happened to the millions of trade tokens? I have a theory and only that. Could the Rm have sequestered the tokens by informing business these were no longer acceptable as a valid payment and to return the coins to the mint for a value for value swap with the new coinage? And is it possible that these coins were rolled or buffed to dampen any imagery on the coins? It would make sense if we follow the good housekeeping premise.?

 So "IF" and it is a big "IF" that could of been what they did with the no longer needed trade tokens bearing in mind they were precious metal and would save the mint a substantial cost in reproduction the resulting strike on these ex token coinage could still have left residue images from what was on them before? you only need to look through the trade token era to see how many used ships as themes or animals. I know it is a leap but is it that far of a leap for it to be completely an absurd notion?

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Well for sure the early soho mint of Matthew boulton actually produced many trade tokens. When I first noticed the net which is a bit like a 3d net we use in geology in which a series of overlapping images of four themes I did have a lot in the late 18th C copper he was producing. Copper has quite a low melting point but even so it is cheaper I suppose to reuse. But removing the design might be quite hard work. From what I have unpicked you have to imagine a series of lions and lambs juxtaposed on a 3d mesh with a slight "movement" of heads each successive move borrows elements from the previous position but the sequence remains pretty much the same. The net effect is that tiny elements knit together as you move further away into the larger units. In later coins this seems to be be overlapped by a ribbon like sequence of George and dragon. And then a garter strip HONI SOIT QUE MAL Y PENSE winds its way through but the letters are broken up. The effect is a weave similar to geometric lines like on paper notes. If you look close to paper notes there are series of hidden dots which absorb graphite differently. The watermark in a note is the best analogy I have.  The main question is how is it possible to affect metal in this way? I don't really know but I believe that it would be possible to achieve it using a simple inking and acid etching process. Essentially it is chemistry the result is much easier to view in silver and the design elements appear if you gently brush the surface. This could be a an oxidation effect or could be these micro fissures picking up oil from the brush. The best result comes from coins which have been buried because these microscopic fine line elements are attacked by the carbonic acid and organic acids "pulling" out the design. I think in the transition into bronze getting this process just write during the minting was a new venture on bronze. Either there are lost design elements or something exists within the coin below the design. It is always the same sequence lion to two lamb triad, The George dragon ribbon and the coded garter insignia. 

I spent many months thinking it imagination but the same primary sequence of lion to lamb occurred in most coins. The primary problem is that you need a large blank area in the field to see them and most coins are quite busy. 

So why do it if it's real? To reduce counterfeiters. It might be simply to identify internal fraud in the mint I'm not even sure yet how the pattern is imposed. I'm not really in a good position these days to get access to the references that I might need to research it academically so I have to prove or disprove it empirically by weight of evidence.  I'm afraid it is a very strange obscure and bizarre story. But it shocks me how complex yet simple the geometry and the tessellation builds up and up to form these patterns. As I say it has taught me to look differently and it has turned my brain into a artistic one which is a nice little twist for a scientist. 

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You also have to consider die bounce if you are looking at slight translational or rotational movement. The better the surfaces, the more noticeable it becomes. 

In the case of the Soho restrikes, you also have to consider the unreliability of Taylor's press which frequently suffered from the collar opening leading to multiple strikes, each slightly rotated from the next. When he acquired the tub of dies from the Soho Mint sale, the collars in particular were found to be worn to the extent that they were virtually useless. Clearly this wasn't something that happened after the mint closed, so we can reasonably assume that it was an ongoing problem throughout the Soho period. Dies wear out and get replaced, but degrading collars are less likely to be noticed until they no longer close properly. A loose collar would give rise to these slight movements.

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yes it makes sense also in an environment where there is higher temperatures, chemicals and steam in the air these could not have been great places for metals to hang around in particular steel /iron which would have rusted very quickly which multiple abrasion surfaces you expect the collar to take  the brunt of the effect as the up and down movement would create persistent movement and ware. The rotation I am looking at however is something more subtle and is an "imposed" design which is not obvious to the naked eye.  It seems to just rely on a "simple" algorithm device which juxtaposes darker against lighter presumably fixed by some kind of etching.  Essentially it is like a very intricate web "beneath" the design surface.  Sometimes this hidden device fits the design which leads to it appearing more clearly because the eye can see the extant design with the underlying "hidden" one beneath.  The shield is a good example of this on the Bronze series.  Where the lions head (to me at least LOL) is quite clear and in the drapes where the small Lamb is being licked by the Lions head formed by the drapes.  It makes me think that when making a design I wonder if the engraver is aware of the process and designs to allow this "fit" with the hidden part, only in that this would allow ease of recognition by the mint of coins which might have been faked.  The obvious question is why bother?  but if the process relies simply on a part process that would have happened then even with less valuable metals like bronze you may as well do it than not.  In the wacko pennies I have the net is present outside the design in the blank part of the  planchets. In truth I do not know the answers in reality I should stop looking and bothering but sadly that is not in my remit.  The question has arrived in my head and I must find an answer....it is sadly just the way I am  

13 minutes ago, Rob said:

You also have to consider die bounce if you are looking at slight translational or rotational movement. The better the surfaces, the more noticeable it becomes. 

In the case of the Soho restrikes, you also have to consider the unreliability of Taylor's press which frequently suffered from the collar opening leading to multiple strikes, each slightly rotated from the next. When he acquired the tub of dies from the Soho Mint sale, the collars in particular were found to be worn to the extent that they were virtually useless. Clearly this wasn't something that happened after the mint closed, so we can reasonably assume that it was an ongoing problem throughout the Soho period. Dies wear out and get replaced, but degrading collars are less likely to be noticed until they no longer close properly. A loose collar would give rise to these slight movements.

 

DSC_1530 (169x200).jpg

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45 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

Essentially it is like a very intricate web "beneath" the design surface.  Sometimes this hidden device fits the design which leads to it appearing more clearly because the eye can see the extant design with the underlying "hidden" one beneath.  The shield is a good example of this on the Bronze series.  Where the lions head (to me at least LOL) is quite clear and in the drapes where the small Lamb is being licked by the Lions head formed by the drapes. 

The possible answer is a (even a slight) understanding of the way the human brain works. We are "geared" to see patterns in everything, probably stemming from the genetic necessity for babies to recognise faces almost before anything else. This weakens as we get older but it never dies out, and so we 'see' many things by forming a pattern that has meaning out of something that is completely random. People see the face of Elvis or Jesus or whoever in some item of food they've bought, or in clouds, or anywhere really. The picture below illustrates this perfectly:

OMG It's Jesus (dog).jpg

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we have gone through this whole pareidolia issue time and time again as a geophysicist my mind views the world a little differently that is a sure thing I am not saying that this whole "seeing elvis in a rabbits arse" is the way to approach this but it is something one has to acknowledge as a possibility.  However if this is a learnt behaviour from me it is a rather complex one relying on the triangulation of points to render a 3 D image on a 2 dimensional plane.  The maths is euclidean I suppose something that was a major consideration in the 17th C as mapmakers searching for a method of representing a sphere on a flat surface had to wrestle with the process of what is effectively like a  rasterization process in modern computer graphics.  I do not think that I have learnt a behaviour of looking for a triangular arrangement of |Lion to Lamb and the other design elements.  I have no affinity to either a lion, a lamb, Jesus or elvis in a bunnies arse.  I am simply describing a set of forms that re-appear over and over in a set pattern and trying to make sense of them.  In the same way as I had to learn to read geophysical noise and data to seek patterns likely to match the physical geology in the well logs of a drill section all of which have to form a broad pattern to generate oil or gas and then be captured by structural geology so this is much the same. 

Now rather than trying to win the Radio 4 stand up comedy award seek to examine what you have and look beyond the obvious and see if you can register any similar pattern.  However if a bunnies bottom is more appealing then continue to look that way.  The world is flat ....the world is now round the earth is the centre of the universe according to the pope one year the sun is the centre of the system the next decade.  It is not beyond the alchemic skills of the late 17th C or the complex euclidean mathematics to achieve a net that allows a series of design elements to be rendered into metal via a simple chemical process.  I am simply recording on this forum the patterns that keep on appearing.  

I have a skill for pattern recognition nothing more .  I have for example a collection of over 3500 four leaf clovers.  I see a patch and they appear to me some may call this "MAGIC" others say it is a simple relationship between walking the dogs in a field of clover and a minds ability to pull out a pattern of four our of a myriad of threes.  I am not a magician I simply bother to look at the world around me.  

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39 minutes ago, Peckris said:

The possible answer is a (even a slight) understanding of the way the human brain works. We are "geared" to see patterns in everything, probably stemming from the genetic necessity for babies to recognise faces almost before anything else. This weakens as we get older but it never dies out, and so we 'see' many things by forming a pattern that has meaning out of something that is completely random. People see the face of Elvis or Jesus or whoever in some item of food they've bought, or in clouds, or anywhere really. The picture below illustrates this perfectly:

OMG It's Jesus (dog).jpg

yes I can see the image of Jesus too .  accepted the brain can create many things 

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37 minutes ago, Rob said:

:)

 

my "slight" understanding of my own brain is a helpful pace to start 

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8 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

yes I can see the image of Jesus too .  accepted the brain can create many things 

the fundamental difference is that when you lift a bunnies tail or a dogs tail any dogs tail that is you dont always see Jesus up its arse.  The pattern I register exists taking into account a few variables in all the coins I have studied thus far.   It is not that I wish to see it , I am just acknowledging the possibility. I have a duty to explore the possibility if it were in fact true then it would allow us to spot fakes, it would explain a lot of strange patterns on a coins face, it may also help answer some lost history all of which are interesting in themselves but there are other indications and consequences  too.  

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Just now, DrLarry said:

the fundamental difference is that when you lift a bunnies tail or a dogs tail any dogs tail that is you dont always see Jesus up its arse.  The pattern I register exists taking into account a few variables in all the coins I have studied thus far.   It is not that I wish to see it , I am just acknowledging the possibility. I have a duty to explore the possibility if it were in fact true then it would allow us to spot fakes, it would explain a lot of strange patterns on a coins face, it may also help answer some lost history all of which are interesting in themselves but there are other indications and consequences  too.  

To be honest - and call me thick if you like - I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at.

Are you referring to random shapes which resemble something we know of (you mentioned animals) which might, for whatever reason, appeared on the surface of a coin.

Or are you referring to some intentional underlying design, initially meant to be hidden (?) from the general public.

If the former, I don't see any point in bothering. If the latter, explain more or clarify what you do mean.  

 

  

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16 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

I do not think that I have learnt a behaviour of looking for a triangular arrangement of |Lion to Lamb and the other design elements.

True, but having 'seen' them once, it's not impossible that you start seeing them over and over again? In other words, retroactive scientific explanations for something that actually doesn't exist. 

The biggest question you've got to answer in relation to this is "Why? What's the motivation behind hiding lions and lambs on coins?"

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6 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

To be honest - and call me thick if you like - I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at.

Are you referring to random shapes which resemble something we know of (you mentioned animals) which might, for whatever reason, appeared on the surface of a coin.

Or are you referring to some intentional underlying design, initially meant to be hidden (?) from the general public.

If the former, I don't see any point in bothering. If the latter, explain more or clarify what you do mean.  

 

  

The latter.  It would seem to me to make sense in the later 17th C to seek out a way to reduce the counterfeiting of silver which threatened along with variable prices in continental veres British silver to undermine the economy.  I am suggesting that a simple process of chemistry could enable those who understood this matrix design to identify it quickly by a simple chemical reverse reaction to discover centres of counterfeiting in and around the country.  It can come of no surprise that the rise of the banks could have acted in some pivotal  role to quickly identify silver that was not authentic quickly.  In much the same way now with a paper note we stick under UV light.  The choice of the pattern is simply down to a simple triangulation anomaly that allows a design of a lions head to mirror with add ons the triangular nature of a lambs head.  Of course the two have a religious connotation and I thought initially the idea may have developed out of the the whole idea of transmogrification the King or queen being both protector and nurturer and the lamb and lion being the direct idea that christ was both lamb and lion.  But I am in no way religious but that is not to ignore the fact that this may have been part of the motivation for these symbolic emblems.   

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16 minutes ago, Peckris said:

True, but having 'seen' them once, it's not impossible that you start seeing them over and over again? In other words, retroactive scientific explanations for something that actually doesn't exist. 

The biggest question you've got to answer in relation to this is "Why? What's the motivation behind hiding lions and lambs on coins?"

I think it serves simply as I have mentioned as a method to primarily reduce counterfeiting the lion standard was used as a measure of sterling and marked from Queen Anne onwards.  Once you have developed the grid and have a pattern for it it is a simple process of inking and then dipping in the correct reagents which would corrode and etch line and or depth according to a simple formula of letting the planchets or the bars rest in the reagents for a specific time.  It is similar to the reverse when silver salts are used on photographic film and when you want to bring out those light exposed areas you place them for a specific time to produce an image.  The photosensitivity of silver salts has been known since the 17th early 18th C and I think the alchemy that Newton was involved in could quite easily have led to a discovery of this phenomena.  Why would this remain a secret ?  I dont know the answer for that perhaps it is mixed up with the trial of the Pyx or the fact that in one form or another the design has continued to be used in some form or another why expose a secret if you dont have to.  I assume workers at the mint worked in separate areas of the process and perhaps did not appreciate the whole process. 

 

It is a very elaborate tail I have no idea and yes of course you may be right it may be re-enforced time after time.  If so after a further year of studying it I get nowhere I will abandon the idea.  I thought I would broaden this out a little and ask the forum.  I do not intentionally set out to deceive or   initiate a hoax I just wanted to present some observations in case anyone could also identify some aspects of the riddle.   

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30 minutes ago, Peckris said:

True, but having 'seen' them once, it's not impossible that you start seeing them over and over again? In other words, retroactive scientific explanations for something that actually doesn't exist. 

The biggest question you've got to answer in relation to this is "Why? What's the motivation behind hiding lions and lambs on coins?"

I have no idea subliminal recognition may also play a part in all this, propaganda art has always been a factor in coins.  The very fact that a kings image exists on a coin is to present this to the population they would never see him...well most. The transmogrification idea rests somewhere perhaps in the idea of the DEI GRATIA by the anointing of a the king as the servant in a christian world to God.  The christian motif of lion and Lamb is used periodically in imagery and images are the most powerful method of control in a generally illiterate population.  The use of the Lion when it does appear what is its meaning as a design element what does it say?  I think designs are not chosen in coins just to make a pretty statement they are there for a purpose.  This is something we have to acknowledge whether the lion is obvious or hidden.  I dont know maybe the whole lion in the head of a king goes back to the Nemean lion skin that Alexander has on his head, stolen from the demigod Hercules a transitional entity not true god but half god let's face it the divine right of kings was a pretty strong reality.  Iconography and propaganda is a complex weave or purpose and manipulation.  How better to do that than the coins in the pocket that keep you alive buying protection and security.  The designs on Roman and Greek coins served a purpose to re-enforce the power of the state or empire and what is on the very first coin  a Lion and a weaker sacrificial animal ram, lamb, or calf on the obverse of the stater.  What is more interesting however is what exists in the recessive reverse which if you examine them are very interesting as much so as the raised area.   this has kept me interested in coins now for a few years seeking interest in part of the history of coining since 700bc to the present.  I find it all intriguing and it forces me to ask questions rather than take a passive approach to collecting 

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I cannot fully answer the reason why this should be seen now by me.  Digital photography pixelates which is in some ways a reverse of the rasterization process if I understand how this world correctly.  OPf course Newton did not have a computer made of chips and electronics but he understood simple algorithmic patterns and all this is is a simple tesselation one unit building into another , but he did have a good brain along with many others during the renaissance, perspective and multiple viewing and hiding patterns becomes the main pillars of art as we move into the age of enlightenment.   Simple repetition devices and the use of the triad arrangement in art subliminally force the viewer to find a path through a work of art.  This pattern seems to have a rotational element to it which may have some connection to the golden rule which was beginning to be seen in nature.  The re-finding of the ancient texts and following the rules  the ancient sources like Vitruvius on architecture influenced people like C Wren so it is not too far a stretch to think that similar influences might ...just might be used by Newton when trying to solve a simple problem.  He never did anything as is.  

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I want to be able to open the debate more than anything else. I have felt it important enough to allow myself to be open to the criticism and ridicule and I have considered many elements of the the discussion which I would enjoy the debate if you are at least willing to look with me. 

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if i'm sitting on my bog i can say a hooded lady on the wooden floor, 

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Well that is very nice for you perhaps don't get too distracted if you are in the process of your anal ablations. 

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On 6/16/2018 at 10:47 PM, craigy said:

if i'm sitting on my bog i can say a hooded lady on the wooden floor, 

The late Grim Reaper?

Powerful stuff, eh?

Edited by Rob

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you still can't I dug out an old halfpenny from William III which i bought a few years ago as 1696... I saw it as 6 recut with a 5.. others saw just 1696, others saw 1695, if i angle it I can see either 95 or 96... then someone said 5 over 4.. which also possible.

 

the subliminal recognition I know best is the George V modified Effigy... give me a coin with that head on head side I can see it right away, however give me a 1926 reverse side, takes me a few minutes to recognize it.

I got some token in Bulgaria a few years back, with the Pentacle of Soloman on one side, the other side re carved to have the P with the X through the tail.. but with 2 X, no idea what that is... and only found 1 example of the token in the first place.... on a polish forum :/, wonder what this is for.

Edited by scott

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5 hours ago, scott said:

the subliminal recognition I know best is the George V modified Effigy... give me a coin with that head on head side I can see it right away, however give me a 1926 reverse side, takes me a few minutes to recognize it.

Ditto ...

and why? Both 1926 reverses are the same! You can't tell an ME from the reverse, it's a mule.

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I fully understand your hesitancy all of you and I find such silly ideas verging on the ridiculous such a terrible waste of time.  I myself have spent now two years of research on this one project usually spending a couple of hours a day using the microscope, imaging it, drawing it and reconstructing the lines in order to make some sense of it.  It is only the simple fact that in science we follow patterns (and I dont mean picture patterns, I mean groupings of events that recur ) once you find one you try to understand it, this is the very nature of  the empirical  approach.  You then once you think you have an idea seek to nullify it by proposing the reverse hypothesis. The purpose of this is to seek to find deviations and then analyse the event or pattern statistically.  The underlying function of this approach is to attempt to destroy your proposal.  I think that I have tried to follow the same popperian process with this silly and annoying pattern (pictorial) and for the life of me I cannot get it to "go away".  This leaves then a few conclusions the obvious one is as you go at great length to point out...."that this is pareidolia and I am as nutty as bar of wholenut"  or it pareidolia and my mind has re-wired itself to see the same pattern again and again, or there maybe something.  Whilst I accept I may be psychologically affected post chemotherapy the effect of studying this coming out of that haze has engaged my mind is the most wonderful way and in fact spread my knowledge of coins and my collection back to Lydian times.  I am more than happy to be totally wrong.  In truth I would prefer this option but I would hate to reach that point without undertaking a rigorous and intensive investigation. 

In science one of the most difficult aspects of the work is the that moment when you think you have an idea and you launch it with your peer group.  Often this will lead to derition which is always hard to cope with no matter at what stage in ones career.  However ridicule under peer review that relies on  no personal engagement is nothing of any real value to any society.  In this case as I have mentioned many times before if a sensible debate could be initiated in which I propose each element of the theory and you view this and then with open mind look at your own examples then we could either benefit as a group or I at least could just spend the time painting in my retirement years, or return to Africa to work with the kids in the charity.  But either way I am suggesting a less dismissive approach.     If nothing else we may all turn into artists LOL.  It has also taught me how to look in great detail in coins and the process has allowed me to see anomalies in the normal and added to my collection almost all the rare varieties that everyone keeps getting excited about.  SO again I suggest we may all gain from the experience and I am happy to share that.  

at the very least this is not all about money ££££  $$$$$m aLL the time which seems to preoccupy this forum constantly. 

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I just want to say thanks to all pf you that questioned me and pushed me I think I have gone back and considered method and purpose a lot since you did so I started at first principal and thought what would be available and why it is my method I have used the past few years gave me the results.  I think now I have solved the riddle using very simple rudimentary materials and have began to get some good results.  It was as simple as animal fat and lamp blacking which gets into the surface pattern and brings it forward.  It has helped me begin to search in a more productive way so thanks 

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