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craigy

VIP Proof Royal Mint reply

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Had some kind of Royal Mint reply regarding the 1953 VIP proof set and i'm guessing it could count for all the cameo/VIP proofs, 

one of my questions  was in regards to the 1953 cameo set i have and the cameo crown which i have seen described as VIP proof when they are frosted, , these are the coins in question 

the Royal Mint Museums reply is as follows 

Dear Mr Cook

 

Thank you for your patience in awaiting a response regarding the subject of the 1953 proof sets.

 

The frosting on these so-called on these VIP sets is difficult to comment upon, however we do know that the finish varies from set to set. With this in mind, we cannot be sure that the set we have in the Museum’s collection corresponds to the VIP version identified by coin dealers and any photographs we could supply you with would be misleading.

 

I would, however, recommend that you show your set to one of the large London coin dealers to see if they may be able to enlighten you on the finish of your set. The Members page on the British Numismatic Trade Association website has a list of reputable vendors, including those in London, and I would encourage you to contact them with your enquiry.

 

Kind regards

Fiona

 

so even the Royal Mint cannot answer this question, so i guess without sound provenience there is no way of separating these, although some people say you can tell by the sharpness etc, i'm sure the mint museum would have commented on this if that was the fact and the comment about varying from set to set says it all really, 

 

the enigma continues 

 

 

 

 

 

53.jpg

532.jpg

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OK, I've tried to respond twice and these have been lost in the internet ether...

 

As the RM has suggested in the above letter, there is probably no good way to prove origin or intent of and for a particular coin or set. Although no doubt some coins were struck under special circumstances, there is a lot of variability in the actual proof coins themselves. Not only the time and conditions of when they were struck, but also how much care went into the production of a particular die(s) or planchet, and many other variables. It surprises me not that there is NO DEFINITIVE ANSWER.

Some coins are clearly superior to others of a particular denomination or date, and most generally agree on the best of specimens that there is something "better" about them. Should such a particular coin or coins be considered ex post facto be determined to be a VIP Record specimen? IMO, I don't think so.

To me the major variables in determining how special is a special (LOL) with a particular coin are:

- planchet quality

- "freshness" of strike or how early a coin was struck along with articulation of device details, lettering, details, lettering, denticles, rims, etc.

- strike pressure or quality of strike.  Not the same thing which can be further discussed

- wear or marks post strike (not actually a mark of "special" status) but affecting its presentation

- amount and quality of cameo contrast

 

Naturally, I have seen individual coins that are clearly superior to others. Whether they are a more ordinary specimen struck with all of the above factors maximized, or a special originally designated VIP matters not, at least to me. The designation of such a coin or coins as VIP can then be seen to be arbitrary. With regards to a particular specimen, these are worthy of a premium compared to more pedestrian examples but the question is how much? I believe I recall one 1953 set bringing 10k sterling or thereabouts and I just can not see that....

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As I said previously, historically the term VIP was only used with the non-public issued years. There might have been a few sets that appeared down the years in a different style box, but I'm not sure there was ever a superior finish to these which was unambiguously better than the rest. As far as I can see, the term VIP was hijacked for use with the mass produced sets as a marketing tool for better cameo/strike examples of what was otherwise a common date and worth not a lot. Funny how you only see the term applied to the bigger, in your face denominations, and not the unpopular bronzes (Booooo) or florins et infra 'silver'.

If the mint hasn't got a clue, then I would suggest it is mostly a case of wishful thinking, though there may be some superior quality coins within those so attributed. If they were genuinely identifiable, then an AU55 VIP should be quite possible.

Edited by Rob
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The only VIP proof set 1953 (I believe) I have seen was in a much bigger case and without the Crown, They also were of the earlier observe.

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46 minutes ago, Gary1000 said:

The only VIP proof set 1953 (I believe) I have seen was in a much bigger case and without the Crown, They also were of the earlier observe.

from the plastic set ??? 

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21 hours ago, craigy said:

from the plastic set ??? 

No these were proofs. The plastic sets were currency.

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

The true 1953 VIP proof set was issued with a very rare mule penny, i.e. beaded obverse and toothed reverse, F244 in highly polished finish. Hence the 5 figure price reached in auction.

see http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/img.php?a=150&l=414&f=r&s=l

but them coins look worse than my set ???    well the silvers, but there is no mention of any other vip denomination and it seems lc seem to make up there own opinion and after recent experiences and knowledge i have gained i believe a lot of dealers are abusing this vip status and that frosted/cameo are not as scarce as they say, i have a slabbed pf 66 1937 cameo half crown and you can see there is something special about it, and them coins in the lc link do not look special,  not being rude but if the royal mint cannot answer that question i'm pretty sure you wont be able too, 

Edited by craigy

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2 hours ago, craigy said:

but them coins look worse than my set ???    well the silvers, but there is no mention of any other vip denomination and it seems lc seem to make up there own opinion and after recent experiences and knowledge i have gained i believe a lot of dealers are abusing this vip status and that frosted/cameo are not as scarce as they say, i have a slabbed pf 66 1937 cameo half crown and you can see there is something special about it, and them coins in the lc link do not look special,  not being rude but if the royal mint cannot answer that question i'm pretty sure you wont be able too, 

Because there is also a normal proof set for 1953, you wouldn't see any difference between those and the VIP proofs. VIPs are usually for years when there are no regular proofs issued, hence their rarity. However, that rare 1953 penny on its own makes the set a very sought after commodity, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the buyer was only after the penny, for which a very high sum was paid.

Edited by Peckris

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23 minutes ago, Peckris said:

Because there is also a normal proof set for 1953, you wouldn't see any difference between those and the VIP proofs. VIPs are usually for years when there are no regular proofs issued, hence their rarity. However, that rare 1953 penny on its own makes the set a very sought after commodity, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the buyer was only after the penny, for which a very high sum was paid.

so why does spinks and davis quote that the vip proof crowns  are frosted yet also a standard proof with no mention of frosting  for the 1937 and 1953 crown ???   the same with the rare frosted proof 53 half crown from the plastic set, , the standard one is easy to get yet no mention frosted proof for the standard proof, still out on this subject, i know there are 2 versions of the 53 half crown, dots to gratia etc, 

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5 minutes ago, craigy said:

so why does spinks and davis quote that the vip proof crowns  are frosted yet also a standard proof with no mention of frosting  for the 1937 and 1953 crown ???   the same with the rare frosted proof 53 half crown from the plastic set, , the standard one is easy to get yet no mention frosted proof for the standard proof, still out on this subject, i know there are 2 versions of the 53 half crown, dots to gratia etc, 

I don't regard Spinks and Davies 100% accurate on this (Spink probably took their information from Davies anyway). The fact is, all regular proofs between 1937 and 1953 come with or without frosting, and those that are frosted have variable levels of frosting, and some coins in sets are frosted while others aren't. You can't determine a VIP proof from frosting alone if there are no other  differences.

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46 minutes ago, Peckris said:

Because there is also a normal proof set for 1953, you wouldn't see any difference between those and the VIP proofs. VIPs are usually for years when there are no regular proofs issued, hence their rarity. However, that rare 1953 penny on its own makes the set a very sought after commodity, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the buyer was only after the penny, for which a very high sum was paid.

I agree. In the absence of that, it would have only achieved a tiny fraction of the 5 figure sum, at auction.

As you say "VIP" really only applies to those years where there is not general proof issue, and the term now often seems to be a bit of a con.    

 

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Guest Lordzen

IMG_20180227_181339177.jpgGary1000 Hi.  I've been clearing out old stuff in massive de-cluttering and have come across my and my grandfather's collection of old coins. Mostly pennies halfpennies (tried to get one for each year) florings half crowns etc. A couple of interesting ones like a James 2nd Half Crown 1687 and a George IV 1827 shilling, a George V half sovereign I think, and also, to cut to the chase, among the sixpences groats and threepenny coins a small George V silver threepenny bit sized token with the Lord's prayer on it. I looked it up, most of what I can find are bronze but this seems silver, like the 3d coins of the age. In my Googling it came up with your 'searching for' post here from four years ago. A long shot but I thought I'd ask if you ever got one and if you'd want this? Kind regards, Keith Harris keith@zencom.com

IMG_20180227_181328666.jpg

IMG_20180227_181339177.jpg

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my take away from all this is it there is 0 difference between vip and non vip from standard standard proof years. 

only worth the splooge for non standard dates.

I personally like the 1928-1936 date range HC and sixpence proofs and considered buying one in the past but IMO they fall in the same catagory s the above most the time, rarely cameo, can be easily reproduced in quality with standard strike and the depth of fields/ sharpness of strike is not far off a standard strike.

 

Considering the price difference between a standard strike 1928 HC amazing quality £45-60 or a mediocre "proof"(some are also questionable) for £1200 i chose multiple high grade standard strikes.

Bare this all in mind that i love buying proof coins too, nothing beats the level of quality a proof provides but when standard strike/normal proof is indistinguishable from the VIP version then personally I call it highly justified to avoid as it just doesn't make sense 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rob said:

And even 'VIP' years aren't necessarily frosted. 

e.g. http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=156&searchlot=2361&searchtype=2

compared to the 'silver' of the same year, which bear in mind was done on a scanner, so in reality heavily frosted

img172.jpg

thats a beautiful coin, is it yours ????      

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are we having the same with this penny, struck in silver to bu standard according to the royal mint when i asked what strike it was, , looks cameo proof to me ??? 

P1030380.jpg

P1030381.jpg

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54 minutes ago, craigy said:

thats a beautiful coin, is it yours ????      

Yes it came from a 1958 set in the Circular in 2003. I had the shillings too and should have taken the florin. Colin Adams had bought the set to get the halfcrown he needed, so the others were going spare. The florin was sold through Spink's March 2005 sale.

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53 minutes ago, Rob said:

Yes it came from a 1958 set in the Circular in 2003. I had the shillings too and should have taken the florin. Colin Adams had bought the set to get the halfcrown he needed, so the others were going spare. The florin was sold through Spink's March 2005 sale.

shame the set was broken up, were the bronzes there as well

 

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Whole 1958 sets are bringing close to 10k pounds - or even above!

That's a nice 6d there!

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1 hour ago, craigy said:

shame the set was broken up, were the bronzes there as well

 

No, it was the Cu-Ni only. They were item MS5788 in the Dec.2003 Circular. Sorry, can't upload them as there seems to be a formatting conflict which is beyond me.

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20 hours ago, Guest Lordzen said:

IMG_20180227_181339177.jpgGary1000 Hi.  I've been clearing out old stuff in massive de-cluttering and have come across my and my grandfather's collection of old coins. Mostly pennies halfpennies (tried to get one for each year) florings half crowns etc. A couple of interesting ones like a James 2nd Half Crown 1687 and a George IV 1827 shilling, a George V half sovereign I think, and also, to cut to the chase, among the sixpences groats and threepenny coins a small George V silver threepenny bit sized token with the Lord's prayer on it. I looked it up, most of what I can find are bronze but this seems silver, like the 3d coins of the age. In my Googling it came up with your 'searching for' post here from four years ago. A long shot but I thought I'd ask if you ever got one and if you'd want this? Kind regards, Keith Harris keith@zencom.com

IMG_20180227_181328666.jpg

IMG_20180227_181339177.jpg

Hi and thanks, I managed to find one which was engraved on the back of a silver 3d rather than a specially manufactured medal.

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Spotted this in a local auction - looks to be the remnants of a 1953 boxed set with the penny removed - might be of interest to someone here? (Not for me!)

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/ba80400dd3bb7835a11467c1b73bc7c5/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/antiques-collectables-lot-382/

P

 

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1 hour ago, Paddy said:

Spotted this in a local auction - looks to be the remnants of a 1953 boxed set with the penny removed - might be of interest to someone here? (Not for me!)

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/ba80400dd3bb7835a11467c1b73bc7c5/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/antiques-collectables-lot-382/

P

 

 

It looks like a non Royal Mint currency set.

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