Penny reverse ID please.

[mrbadexample 985]

Sorry the picture's a bit crap but can you tell me which Freeman reverse this is (and what identifies it as such) please?

Cheers, MBE

[terrysoldpennies 691]

Its a Freeman reverse d , It has a small rock to the left of the Lighthouse and Britannia has a long thin Plume to the helmet .     Terry

[mrbadexample 985]

Thanks Terry. That was my thought too (honest!).

What about the obverse then please? This I found much harder and I gave up. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by mrbadexample

[1949threepence 3,366]

19 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

Thanks Terry. That was my thoughts too (honest!).

What about the obverse then please? This I found much harder and I gave up. 

Think it's obverse 6 Jon, which would make your coin a Freeman 29. Although I stand to be corrected.

The 1861 obverse/reverse die combinations are quite difficult to get your head round.  

 

 

 

[mrbadexample 985]

20 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Think it's obverse 6 Jon, which would make your coin a Freeman 29. Although I stand to be corrected.

The 1861 obverse/reverse die combinations are quite difficult to get your head round.  

Damn, I wanted it to be obverse 3!  

How can you tell please Mike? I found that quite a challenge from relatively poor pictures, as I don't have it in hand.

 

[1949threepence 3,366]

35 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

Damn, I wanted it to be obverse 3!  

How can you tell please Mike? I found that quite a challenge from relatively poor pictures, as I don't have it in hand.

 

From Freeman's description, the main indicators for obverse 6 are:-

1/ The topmost part of the head is only 0.9mm from the linear circle instead of 1.5mm as on obverses 1 to 5 (although I can't measure it)

2/ Parts of the left and central leaves of the first group are incompletely struck and the former leaf points to an area distinctly to the right of the upper dot after the G of D:G, whereas on previous obverses, it pointed either directly to it, or minutely above it.

3/ The B of BRITT is almost in contact with the head.

4/ There is no L.C.WYON and unlike obverse 5, no recess into the outline of the bust where the signature previously appeared.

Hope this helps Jon - but as I say, I'm never 100% confident on all of the 1861 combos myself.          

[mrbadexample 985]

That's really helpful Mike, thanks. 

I guess (1) is something that becomes obvious with familiarity, but I certainly get (2) & (3). (4) is a bit more difficult for me as it looks like there's a bit of a recess to me.

I don't think I'll buy it: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1861-1862-1872-1874-1882H-1890-VICTORIAN-BUN-PENNIES-IN-A-WELL-USED-CONDITION/152902303195?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 but definitely worth a second look, for the education if nothing else. 

[Peckris 579]

15 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

That's really helpful Mike, thanks. 

I guess (1) is something that becomes obvious with familiarity, but I certainly get (2) & (3). (4) is a bit more difficult for me as it looks like there's a bit of a recess to me.

I don't think I'll buy it: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1861-1862-1872-1874-1882H-1890-VICTORIAN-BUN-PENNIES-IN-A-WELL-USED-CONDITION/152902303195?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 but definitely worth a second look, for the education if nothing else. 

(1) is quite obvious with experience, and if you see an obverse 6 side by side with an earlier obverse.

[mrbadexample 985]

1 minute ago, Peckris said:

(1) is quite obvious with experience, and if you see an obverse 6 side by side with an earlier obverse.

I've been flicking backwards & forwards between Freeman & Gouby, and it is quite apparent once you know what you're looking for.

I appreciate all the help. 

[secret santa 2,013]

37 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

3/ The B of BRITT is almost in contact with the head.

This one's the dead give-away. Even on the most worn specimen if 1860 or 1861. Look at the big pictures on my varieties website. Easier than looking at Freeman/Gouby books.

[mrbadexample 985]

35 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Look at the big pictures on my varieties website. Easier than looking at Freeman/Gouby books.

I have this bookmarked yet forgot and tried it the hard way. Yes, it's much easier! 

[zookeeperz 470]

11 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

I have this bookmarked yet forgot and tried it the hard way. Yes, it's much easier! 

Also nearly all obverse 6's have a die flaw behind the top colon closest to the bust just on the linear circle  giving it a look of three stops

 

[terrysoldpennies 691]

13 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

Thanks Terry. That was my thought too (honest!).

What about the obverse then please? This I found much harder and I gave up. 

Sorry I haven't  answered sooner, Going around the coin, the identifying points on the type 6 are . 

The back of the head almost touches the B in BRITT, this looks wider on some coins as the serif is sometimes missing at the back of the B

The triple colon after the D: in F: D: present on many  6s,    already mentioned

The bottom of the bust has no signature and is close to the teeth

Also along the bottom of the bust slightly left of centre is a small bare triangular indentation into the bottom of the bodice , on this example it must have a small dent or something as it appears as a little dark dash to the right of the rose.

The colons by D: G:   right of the D: point to the tooth,  right of the G: point to the gap , worn away on this example.

The leaves on her forehead , at a glance look like four equal length points, on other types appear as three. again worn on this coin.

Lastly the top of the head is further away from the teeth. 

 

[1949threepence 3,366]

2 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Sorry I haven't  answered sooner, Going around the coin, the identifying points on the type 6 are . 

The back of the head almost touches the B in BRITT, this looks wider on some coins as the serif is sometimes missing at the back of the B

The triple colon after the D: in F: D: present on many  6s,    already mentioned

The bottom of the bust has no signature and is close to the teeth

Also along the bottom of the bust slightly left of centre is a small bare triangular indentation into the bottom of the bodice , on this example it must have a small dent or something as it appears as a little dark dash to the right of the rose.

The colons by D: G:   right of the D: point to the tooth,  right of the G: point to the gap , worn away on this example.

The leaves on her forehead , at a glance look like four equal length points, on other types appear as three. again worn on this coin.

Lastly the top of the head is further away from the teeth. 

 

I've noticed that as well, Terry. 

[mrbadexample 985]

14 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

Also nearly all obverse 6's have a die flaw behind the top colon closest to the bust just on the linear circle  giving it a look of three stops

 

 

3 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

The triple colon after the D: in F: D: present on many  6s,    already mentioned

 

I'm not seeing this on any of the ones I've looked at.  

The help here has been super though, thank you all. I sat and had a good look through the ebay offerings until much too late last night and certainly have a bit more idea about what I'm looking at. I'm not quite there yet though, surprisingly...

[mrbadexample 985]

So how about this one, another ebay offering. Not the best photos to work from.

This I think is Freeman reverse G, with the lower second 1. I can't see whether or not it's double cut. I am basing this almost entirely on the lack of rocks to the left of the lighthouse.

Reverse G features on Freeman 20 (R12), 25 (R12), 28 (R18) and 33 (R5). So on any example not paired with obverse 6 (F33) it's a fairly scarce coin.

[secret santa 2,013]

11 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

The triple colon after the D: in F: D: present on many  6s,

A bit tenuous in my view......................

[mrbadexample 985]

So, the obverse. Judging by the proximity of the B to the head, and the pointing of the foremost leaf, I'm fairly sure it's not obverse 6.

I don't think it's 4 as I can't see any signature under the bust. That leaves obverse 2 (F20, R12) and obverse 5 (F28, R18). I can't differentiate between them at this level. I expect it to be obverse 2, as if it was F28 one of you buggers would have bought it by now. 

Which do you think it is please?

 

[mrbadexample 985]

4 minutes ago, secret santa said:

A bit tenuous in my view......................

Not 'arf! 

[terrysoldpennies 691]

A bit tenuous in my view......................

It turns up quite often. perhaps over stated as a colon

 

 

[secret santa 2,013]

3 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

It turns up quite often.

Yes, it's on most of my obverse 6s.

[terrysoldpennies 691]

10 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

So, the obverse. Judging by the proximity of the B to the head, and the pointing of the foremost leaf, I'm fairly sure it's not obverse 6.

I don't think it's 4 as I can't see any signature under the bust. That leaves obverse 2 (F20, R12) and obverse 5 (F28, R18). I can't differentiate between them at this level. I expect it to be obverse 2, as if it was F28 one of you buggers would have bought it by now. 

Which do you think it is please?

 

Obverse 5  Large gap between the bust and teeth, with as you say no signature, outer ribbon narrows at the top, on less warn coins it has an incused fold at the top.

[mrbadexample 985]

Thanks Terry. Do I have the right reverse?

 

[terrysoldpennies 691]

3 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

Thanks Terry. Do I have the right reverse?

 

The signature could be worn off , and the ribbon is to warn to be absolutely clear ,so I wouldn't pay a high price for a possible rare one.   Both pics are of the Obv. are you referring to the Freeman D discussed earlier , if so the rev. is a definite D.  and the 5+d 1861 is listed as common.     Terry

[mrbadexample 985]

50 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

So how about this one, another ebay offering. Not the best photos to work from.

This I think is Freeman reverse G, with the lower second 1. I can't see whether or not it's double cut. I am basing this almost entirely on the lack of rocks to the left of the lighthouse.

Reverse G features on Freeman 20 (R12), 25 (R12), 28 (R18) and 33 (R5). So on any example not paired with obverse 6 (F33) it's a fairly scarce coin.

This one Terry.